r/classicwow • u/Deathtonic • 10h ago
Forever Beta Feedback Unintended outcomes of the Dungeon XP Nerf
Monster Skip Runs [ More than just end game dungeons ]
Hard Reserving of low level gear [ Not just Cruel Barb ]
Less Tank and Healers leveling [ You see them say it every day on reddit since the nerf ]
Tanks and Healers charging for their services for low level dungeons [ Not just end game ]
Less dungeons begin ran [ Meaning harder to find groups ]
Less social interactions [ Dungeons were the group activity, questing is primarily solo ]
Some dungeons being skipped entirely [ Alliance have no reason to run Shadow Fang Keep since there are no quests and no mob XP ]
There are more issues than just these, I normally just run a dungeon 3-5 times now trying to convince people to do that will be drastically harder.
why would cloth users help me do Scarlett Monetary Armory?
Will people just Skip SM Cath because you have to clear all mobs?
We have never had to ask these questions before and this is why people are so passionate about it, we are supposed to be playing this version Forever.
Just make Boosting a lifetime bannable offense.
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u/TroubledSkunk 8h ago
Since I get such little xp in a group, why would I not just ask my 60 friend to run a dungeon for the quests and loot and be done in 10 min
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u/BigBlackMom 7h ago
This is the new dungeon boost. 60 carries four people for quests or one person pays extra for quests, all quest items and loot. Continues to alienate the low level community and nothing breaks terms of service.
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u/deflection1337 5h ago
I can already see this coming, the alt ready to share the quest the main that carries you in and out in 10 min for a nice chunk of xp.
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u/Turtlesaur 6h ago
its a no brainer for sure. Boosters will just have an alt with all the quests to share.
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u/hardcider 7h ago
There is exp to be had but compared to having someone bulldoze the dungeon get full quest exp and move to the next....you know what most people will do.
Ironically people will just sell that, service to run whatever dungeon get the quests done.
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u/Lumpy-Mall1106 6h ago
Just make having a 60 in a low group absolutely destroy the xp per mob, if a handful of people want to dungeon cleave to 60 then let them. It seems needlessly stupid what theyve done
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u/no_terran 5h ago
They did that. If mobs are grey to one player noone gets xp
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u/Manzhah 4h ago
That's the funny part, it already does that even in anniversary. So the devs are fixing a fully fixed problem here.
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u/JarredMack 2h ago
It still baffles me that they haven't sat down to think about why they're trying to solve this "problem". What does it matter if some sweats cleave to 60? Plenty of people quested their way to 60 before despite quest starvation, and now they've fleshed out the world way more so that there's no need to do dungeons to fill the gaps if you don't want to. Who cares if a few sweats do dungeons instead? How does that impact anyone else?
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u/AirFashion 8h ago
It certainly secured my decision to roll Druid.
I couldn’t find a single group for HoT last week as a mage when I was able to play, but I could find unlimited as a Druid.
I’ll heal or tank my one run and move on, because running multiple is useless now. I didn’t think it’d be a big deal but it really did ruin it for me and I LOVE dungeons
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u/Ruger15 8h ago edited 7h ago
I feel like this Forever team has been good and I’m optimistic about the future. This change however is the exact opposite and I have a hard time not believing that there is something they are hiding and that’s the main reason why they did the xp nerf. It feels so unlike the norm with this team.
It really feels like this solution is one of the worst strategies.
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u/Meat_Assassin69 6h ago
Occams razor with blizzard is that they are just terrible at math. They fuck up basic percentages all the time. I wouldn’t be surprised if they still think the last patch bumped it to 70% instead of the actual 4% change it was
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u/Smooth_One 4h ago
The weird thing is that they've still come to this conclusion with Zirene on the team. He genuinely understands the player perspective, and as a former sweat he isn't new to running the numbers on things.
Maybe he was just outvoted, or is primarily working on classes and not involved in xp/leveling.
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u/Boethion 3h ago
Its like a good actor in an M. Night Shyamalan, no matter how good they are the director will always manage to have them give the absolute worse performance you have ever seen just like any halfway competend dev loses all braincells as soon as he joins Blizzard.
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u/methrik 9h ago
You forgot the most important one. It ruins leveling with friends. Dungeons is what brought groups together no matter what quest or zone people were on. Just be a few levels apart and you have all have a common meaningful goal activity to do.
Also players are going to be at odds with each other for an every run. What and how to clear stuff.
Imagine what some of the larger dungeons are going to be like. Xp is kinda what always kept me around runs where we were struggling or if the rest of the dungeon didn’t have loot I needed.
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u/mholtz05 9h ago
Also a great way to meet new people. I remember tanking a slave pens back in the original TBC forever ago, got picked up by a group of guildies that needed a tank. They were an awesome group, ended up joining their guild and raiding with them.
Sure I could have spammed in trade, or found a guild a different way, but grouping for a dungeon is such a more natural way to meet people.
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u/ForsakenLemons 9h ago
Met quite a few people i still speak to now in 2019 classic from spamming dungeons and chatting and with one joining their guild. Never had that with quests.
Totally mad they dont think its the most social aspect of the game.
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u/deathbivouac 7h ago
In nearly 20 years I’ve had far more negative interactions with players in the open world than I ever have had in dungeons. Almost consistently it’s a net negative to run into another player outside of a group quest that requires multiple people, thanks to mob tagging and respawn rates. Sitting at some shitty bonfire for a buff ain’t gonna change that.
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u/Trzlog 7h ago
Blizzard simply does not and has never understood their own game and their players. Dungeon groups (and eventually raids) are how I socialized in vanilla. In older MMOs, it was partying up to grind mobs. WoW got rid of that and gave us dungeons. Now they've taken dungeons and given us what? Nothing.
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u/CtrlAltHate 6h ago
Remember the famous line "you think you do but you don't"
The wow team has always been bad at responding to player feedback like they can't accept players giving them solutions/advice
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u/shroom_elemental 5h ago
I met my wife in Zul'Farrak in 2019 ... it's crazy that Blizzard thinks dungeons are not social lol
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u/DanielTeague 3h ago
"So how'd you two meet?" "Well, we were digging up multiple graves one night.."
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u/Albinofreaken 9h ago
In classic vanilla in 2019, I did SM with a premade of 4, they had just made a guild and needed more people, i enjoyed playing with them so i joined and that guild has been going all the way through classic and we cleared Siege of orgrimmar 25hc
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u/slapdashbr 6h ago
I met the guy who ended up leading our raid team thru naxx progression, because he was doing DMW for his new warlock's mount. dungeons amd raids are the group content that make this gake worth being an MMO
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u/Uncreativity10 7h ago
I met most of my friends in classic 2019 because of dungeons. Without dungeons, I’m basically going to quest to 60 solo or with a duo and I’ll probably never meet new people as they are against my goal out in the open world. Dumbest change by far and there’s quite a shit ton of dumb changes made already
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u/TechnicianMuch9889 9h ago
Early game dungeons is where I found all my guilds. Nowhere else do u get to trial another player's communication, skill, and vibes for 35 minutes
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u/whatisthisabeyotcha 8h ago
100%. The classic dungeon experience was such a blast imo. I ran into a Druid and we became friends and eventually joined his guild. That guild went on to be the top horde guild on the server.
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u/Lynx7 9h ago edited 8h ago
Edit: removing my comment because people of course either intentionally or unintentionally missed the entire point.
Fix dungeon exp.
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u/Zinxii 9h ago
You dont have to be a genius to see that youre right.
The sweaty 1% will always choose the fastest way anyway, whether that means grinding Mobs, questing or spamming dungeons... And i mean, who cares?
most people just enjoy lvling in a good mix of questing and Dungeons.
But yea lets just pretend Its not an issue because [insert nonsense argument]
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u/Mind-Game 9h ago
Also I don't care how sweaty you are, dungeon leveling was never optimal except maybe in stretches where you didn't have any quests left, which forever solves.
And even when dungeon spam beat questing, it was only with 3+ mage groups which means you have to be both sweaty and exactly that comp to beat quest exp.
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u/So_Full_Of_Fail 8h ago
I was pretty sweaty for classic. I dungeon ground my warr and priest to 60. A minority of that was cleave groups.
Most of that was with 4 other random people in the normal Tank+Heal+3 random DPS group.
I like it far better than solo questing.
So now, I'm just going to grab the patched/free version of RXP with all the guides and follow the blue arrow solo.
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u/maxifer 4h ago
The worst for me is shoring up the numbers to the next zone. Yes there are a lot of new quests, but we've only done up to level 30. There's a LOT left from 30 to 60 and having an extra dungeon run while you want to pick up some XP, maybe a drop is fantastic. Having it hurt so much means that people leave and go solo instead. Like if I'm mindlessly grinding mobs, I would rather have it in an environment that can challenge spatial awareness, smart pulling, whatever, rather than just chopping off boar heads. I grinded like level 58 to 60 in the original wow on yetis in Winterspring. That's much worse than having a balanced diet of options, especially when it impacts healers and tanks to the point that there are even fewer. We're running things now because there's a hard cap, I cannot imagine what it will look like when people attempt actual runs during release.
It sucks to go into a zone and be unable to pick up some (or any) of the quests and the best option is to just slam your face into mobs. It sucks to have more than 4 friends/guildies you want to play with but would rather opt out because there's almost no value to rerun it - I know some of us still will, but it just makes it that much harder/worse for everyone. It was great if you were underleveled for the quests, as well, could get to the threshold from a run or two, then pick up said quests.
Beyond the already-an-issue of tanks and healer populations, many who would heal in the later stages (~40+) will probably opt for a dps build instead, because it's so terrible questing alone. Will they get dual spec? Maybe, or save the money for their mount and just solo/group quest. Are there enough gear rewards from quests to maintain two sets of gear? Maybe. Is there enough bag space? Maybe. Whatever it ends up being, they've identified the path of least resistance is just solo questing, taking away a huge element of the game for many. Yeah there are likely to be groups and plenty of people will be just fine, but we're also not seeing long-term impact or progress past 30. It was never faster, and now it's even worse.
Sorry to go off, this issue has just stuck with me and I have had the same consideration: just keep grinding solo, if a dungeon comes up at the right time, sure, but it'll likely be time lost at the end of the day.
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u/So_Full_Of_Fail 4h ago
IMO, the real cracks in this plan wont even show until 50-59. Where before you would be doing dungeons for XP and gear you would use for a while 60-prebis or not.
Now the incentive is to just get to 60 first. So, anything from say Mara+ I'm going to HR the gear I want(which will be both heal and DPS or tank and DPS) on the one run of them I do. And because I'll be a healer or tank, I'll be able to because there will be plenty of DPS just happy to get a group quickly.
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u/newgrl 4h ago
As someone who mains healers, I don't enjoy leveling through questing. It's hard and a pain in the butt. I loved jumping into Dungeons whenever to get XP, but they've decided to make it difficult specifically for my play-style. It's really annoying.
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u/devcal1 4h ago
This is how I feel also. I'll still do it, just accepting it'll take a long time to level.
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u/BadRabiesJudger 4h ago
That's the only thing for me ill sit at whatever level im at and wait for groups to get quests done or get that piece of loot i wanted. Punishing me is bull crap and i will resent you for it. Heck it may even wear me down and you'll lose a sub. But it won't stop me. I'll just sit idle waiting for a group and stream/work on warhammer stuff.
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u/Defiant-Distance3807 5h ago
Just another thing that comes to mind, is with dungeon quests giving so much xp and mobs giving so little. Boosting will be more rampant due to any class being able to boost at 60 all that needs to be done is the quest objectives.
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u/wazoof01 8h ago
The community needs to recognize that a ton of casuals are going to come play the game and if you don't want the game to suck ass and die, then you need to be welcoming of noobs who want full runs with rookie tanks and healers.
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u/i_continue_to_unmike 7h ago
guys, i just like playing dungeons because it's fun, like
it's an MMO, a questy RPG with group dungeons
take away the group aspect and it's just an RPG
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u/Brilliant-Home-9373 7h ago
Its much simpler. As a tank, dungeon XP nerf means ill run leveling dungeons once. Quest run only, guildies only. We have 2x20m raids already, ill play with them, why would I put myself through pugging with potential bads? Its no longer worth it.
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u/Substantial-Newt7809 8h ago
The only thing that would make me tolerate playing like that would be the reward of decent experience from the dungeon. Veteran players who would prefer to level in dungeons are still going to blast and level via questing/grinding, meanwhile ironically a lot of the people calling for the nerfs here on this subreddit who want levelling to be a long slog will struggle to find groups for dungeons.
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u/Fourfifteen415 7h ago
That's the funny part, the people leading the crusade against dungeons are going to quickly realize an already scarce commodity (tanks and healers) is even more scarce because of these changes.
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u/NostraDamnUs 4h ago
I see healers in particular being rougher than usual. Tanks are always hard to find due to the funnel at max level but across the board saw some great improvements, and a lot of warriors and druids will be leveling with tank talents/gear.
Healers had the opposite: a lot of their base power got moved to items, and none of the hybrid spell dps feel great to level compared to their melee spec counterparts. Hard to say whether this translates to less keeping healing gear around, but I do think the changes dissuade the idea of leveling as a healer (even if not healer spec).
Edit: As someone who will be leveling a priest, I will be very hesitant about bringing any mages/warlocks with me if I can help it. They made losing the roll on gear worse by dissuading re-running a dungeon at a time when gear is more important than ever for casters.
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u/spreef 9h ago
The weird thing is this was kinda 'solved' because of the bug calculating the given exp based on the highest lvl in the party. This bug would have killed boosting while giving regular groups regular exp.
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u/Batrall 9h ago
That was a bug?
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u/giant_eel_hound 9h ago
That was a bug?
I wonder how many time devs (at any company) have said this lmao
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u/Aleious 9h ago
Most likely it was just left over from a different solve for boosting.
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u/herby_the_chef 9h ago
Lol it is crazy when you think about it like that but you are right. That xp bug accidentally solved boosting for them? Then they go ahead and create new problems
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u/PmUrFavAnime 9h ago edited 9h ago
I was talking about this with my friend the other day. We're not really a fan of dungeons being basically useless after 1 run. We both really enjoyed spamming dungeons at times. we'd get our fill and then go do questing or whatever.
Having the option to run a dungeon back to back even if it's capped at just a few times a day would be nice.
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u/Trzlog 7h ago
Having the option to run a dungeon back to back even if it's capped at just a few times a day would be nice.
There's no reason for it to be capped either. Don't accept a slightly less worse solution just because Blizzard broke something that was working perfectly fine before. This is like the typical Blizzard MO
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u/FRBafe 9h ago
Hunters and rogues are going to feast with this change. My brother and I are just going to hand pick them for our tank/healer combo group so that no one competes with our gear for our 1 & done dungeons.
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u/AltruisticInstance58 8h ago
Hunters and rogues are going to be sitting in lfg until they outlevel the dungeon they are trying to join because they have been killing green mobs outside of it for so long.
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u/lazy_xindl 9h ago
Unless there is a druid tank who will not take them XD
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u/Betaateb 8h ago
I (a bear) will be taking all the casters with me so no one can take my leather lol.
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u/Lootcifer_ 2h ago
People asking to go again was one of the ways you knew you weren't shit at your role and everyone was happy. It was basically like the WoW version of an FFXIV commendation.
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u/emmons1204 6h ago
My intent was to role a healer, likely a priest like I did in the original. But I also really liked running (and guiding) dungeons with new and old players alike. I found that social interaction to be productive and long enough to show (and be reminded) that being a good, friendly person has it's own rewards.
But now I'm starting off with a purely DPS class. I'll circle back once they fix this...
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u/ikuminpeas 5h ago
The 80% mob xp nerf is so uncalled for... used to be around 300-350~xp per elite mob. Lower it to 150-200xp per elite mob and people gonna be fine. 40xp per elite mob is fkin stupid.
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u/Adventurous-Rate-817 4h ago
With the changes to aoe damage I see no reason to nerf it at all, put it back the way it was.
The boogeyman 'spellcleave' comp will still work to some degree, but not nearly as effectively. Aggrend saying dungeon xp was better than questing is looking at the top end groups with meticulous planning and comparing that to your average solo questing player. First off, it isn't even true, solo questing sweats are much faster, and second, these groups that are leveling as fast as possible in dungeons will find the next fastest option regardless, why balance the game around them to ruin everyone else's fun.
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u/Give_Me_McKee 10h ago
Blizzard's Grand Vision is to have us all in the open world so we have 35 full layers instead of 30. Sorry man, if you like group content maybe a massively multiplayer game isn't for you.
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u/eXVraW5ha2FtdXJh 9h ago
Man I can't wait to be swapping between all 35 as I wpvp, walk out of a city or into a new zone. The immersion with 35 will be unparalleled! I'll be vanishing from my friends while being in the same party questing even more often than I am now!
Think about that social interaction in the world!
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u/GeppaN 10h ago
Yes the dungeon xp nerf is dumb and should be reverted. Hopium they will listen.
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u/Deliverz 8h ago
Tanks won’t be bringing people that will roll against them for their loot either. Why would a warrior roll against a ret for a 2h when they can just bring any other class
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u/MooseRunnerWrangler 7h ago
This has always happened, as someone who tanks and heals often, I usually make my own groups and I always invite classes that won't compete with my/my friends gear. It's just smart. Why would I purposely add people to my group that are DPS that will roll on the gear I want, when I am going out of the way to tank or heal, and I made the group?
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u/okrahtime 6h ago
Honestly, I never did this until Forever. I love running and tanking the dungeons. It is the most social aspect of the game to me. I would accept fellow warriors into my group, need roll on mail gear pre-level 40. I would just run it some more. I did this through Classic 20th Anniversary.
In Forever, after a RoL run with a DPS warrior and Paladin, who needed mail gear that was more tank item, I just started avoiding any group with other mail wearing classes. I left some groups because how can they assure me they won't need something when it drops. Now I am trying to figure out how hard reserves even work because I literally never used it.
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u/PresidenteMozzarella 4h ago
I rolled on some DPS gear as a healer for the first time during beta and it felt dirty, but it's what they want. If I can't level well by playing healer (not the talents, literally just being a healer who heals other people and gets experience) then there is no choice.
Going forward, I will probably do something similar to what you're describing tbh.
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u/Mysterious_Key_6539 1h ago edited 1h ago
Why don't they just give full EXP once or twice a day and then you get much less the next few times until it's ass?? Resets after 24 hours.
Seems easy to implement and you can run it a few times for great exp. Not being able to spam it would still hinder bots/power leveling and dungeon only spam.
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u/Overall_Dust_2232 3h ago
The smaller dungeons are what I found fun about wow every time I play it. In SOD it was hard to find groups sometimes...now I wonder if these changes will just make Forever feel empty.
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u/ISmellHats 4h ago
Easily the worst change they’ve made. If they’re truly dead set on pulling players into the open world then they need to at least incorporate a HC style system where bosses in dungeons award substantially more experience to compensate.
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u/d0odle 9h ago
Very much agree. The xp change is dumb af and hits almost everyone except the boosties. They will just switch to the next best thing (probably hyperspawn grinding).
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u/Doopashonuts 9h ago
Nah itll just result in people just paying high levels to carry them through dungeons to complete the quests and otherwise just not wasting time on dungeons since if the majority of the "value" of the dungeon is the quest Xp and drops then youre losing nothing by just getting carried.
People may be running dungeons in the first wave but I dont see that lasting when the alternative offers an objectively better experience of easy quest clears, no competition on loot, and dramatically reducing the clear time
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u/FightinVitamin 7h ago
Yes, this is a great point. Shifting all the value into quests means there's no penalty for boosting as long as you only get boosted once per dungeon.
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u/The_Gleam 4h ago
I am once again asking Blizzard to please FULLY revert the dungeon XP nerf.
All the other negatives aside; my enjoyment will be gutted if we are trying to skip as many mobs as possible. I REALLY dislike that play style and just want to enjoy some dungeon leveling with my buds and pugs.
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u/beardymanio 9h ago
More HRs is definitely going to be an unintended consequence.
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u/Wooden-Gur3537 9h ago
Skip meta is already here, it's already happening.
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u/Money-Swordfish9070 9h ago
Which is why I plan on tanking, so I can reject hard reserves, people doing convoluted skips, and generally anyone who isn't being a huge chiller. Say what you will about the wonky way they've been handling dungeon XP I'll take anything over people looking at me like I have 3 heads back in 2020 trying to get anything except a paid boost group going for half the dungeons. It was bad!
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u/Objective-Wealth-871 9h ago
Who would’ve thought changing rewards for dungeons would have an impact on how many people would run dungeons??
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u/Cloudsbro 9h ago
Rumor has it the devs are completely blindsided by this 🤪
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u/Bosfordjd 9h ago
Nothing you've said is wrong. This will hurt the average player because there aren’t gonna be tanks and healers for everyone to run dungeons 1x, let alone multiple for quests that require that and just for gear. Especially on pvp servers where as an example it makes no sense to go to excavation even once as horde and possibly have to make multiple corpse runs between arathi mobs and pvp. You’ve disincentivized new content, the travel time loses you so much XP that the dungeon quest XP doesn’t make up for it. My tank/healer duo isn’t even gonna bother with WC on horde as it takes multiple runs to get some of the quest items usually so it’s not worth the time with mob XP being essentially nothing compared to questing and killing open world mobs.
Until 50 we won’t do any dungeon multiple times, they’ll be done for quests 1x only…so we’ll provide 3 dps spots for the dungeons we do vs. the 9-12 we might normally as we’d repeat them a few times for gear upgrades, AAAND XP normally, take the XP out and we are not doing that this time around. And that’s gonna be the case for a lot of tanks and healers.
I'm not even gonna do my horde pally class quest because I'm not going all the way to deadmines just for that.
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u/b4dkarm4 8h ago
I'm planning on leveling a healer for my guild for my first toon. I'll probably do the initial dungeon quests for the xp boost then never set foot in them again and I am someone that loved running dungeons over and over.
If someone needs a dungeon run and is offering to pay for a healer I'm going to decline out of an overabundance in caution over their focus on combating RMT. One of my summoning locks was banned in SoD for RMT even thought it only accepted tips from players. No reason for me to even engage with RMT since I made a good amount of gold just in tips anyway so miss me with that "you aren't telling us the full story" bullshit.
This dev team doesn't know what the hell they are doing. I keep coming back to why did they spend all this time and resources doubling the number of dungeons in the game only to massively disincentivize players from running them? Oh right, pants on head.
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u/titoalmighty 6h ago
The new dungeons (dalaran at least) are so healing intensive you need a healer in healer spec with healing gear to do them comfortably. I did dalaran with a ret paladin wearing half healing gear and it was miserable. He was oom constantly and only by virtue of us both being paladins using lay on hands on cooldown that we actually finished. The dungeons are fun, the mechanics are fun, if you have a person who has dedicated their character to being a good healer.
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u/FightinVitamin 6h ago
Yet another issue: we don't know how populated the open world is going to be. I levelled a lot of toons to 60 in vanilla, and the difference between high pop and low pop servers is massive, or even certain times of day (depending on where your server was located).
But with WoWF, population is entirely in Blizzard's control, since they determine how many people share a shard at once. If shards end up all feeling like high pop servers all the time, and if dungeons don't provide an alternative, WoWF could be the worst levelling experience of any WoW version. Like other posters have said, imagine the sweatiest min-maxers farming hyper-spawns with instant tagging groups, which they'll 100% do if it's the only way to cheese the levelling system. But instead of just removing themselves from the shared world (by grinding dungeons), now they're preventing everyone sharing their shard from completing quests.
I keep seeing more downsides to the dungeon XP nerf. It honestly feels like Blizz hasn't been forthright with their rationale behind it, because it seems deeply anti-social to discourage group play.
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u/SubstanceNo4364 9h ago
All the dungeon xp nerf did, at least for my friends and I, is make it where we will just run our alts through using someone’s main that’s level 60. If you only get a quarter a level from the dungeon xp anyways and ultimately just want a shot at the gear and to get the quests done, why wouldn’t you just have a high level run you through it?
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u/Ryanfischer99 9h ago
I didn't even think about this, but its so true. If mob xp doesnt matter then this actually promotes boosting instead of hindering it.
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u/Vivid_Succotash_6298 10h ago
Another outcome that i think we will see is 5 man stacks farming hyper spawns instead.
So you can potentially end up with certain quests being harder to complete because all the quest mobs are being tagged and bagged by an xp farming group.
Its a bit hypothetical yes, but considering how most people are drawn towards the path of least resistance, i think its a real possibility.
I also saw stealth runs in the beta, so i believe this will continue to be a thing as well when the game gets released.
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u/Upper_Award_6482 9h ago
This is what we call the circle of life. People farming hyper spawns, other people getting layer-locked trying to find a layer where people aren't there. Then Blizz will be like damn if only we had instanced content that enticed people to do them with decent XP to prevent this issue.
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u/Grayson_Poise 9h ago
"Oh no! The obvious consequences of our decisions! Who could have foreseen this?"
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u/Rhobodactylos 8h ago
According to this subreddit this is all hocus pocus and they've NEVER seen a run like this on beta.
Meanwhile we're going to have loads of fun tagging mobs in a cave with an autoclicker, just as the developers intended.
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u/Arkyja 9h ago
People think well wailing caverns requires at least two runs to finish the quest so it's still worth doing twice. No it isn't, the quests can be completed outside. Even if i'm in a full group, why would i go inside for like 45min when i can just kill the SAME mobs outside and get way more xp? Especially with the hyper spawning going on.
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u/fuax19 9h ago
There's already guides and location maps for this method being circulated on forums. Funny thing is normal players will have no recourse when an entire zone is camped because instanced content (dungeons) gives no XP past 1 run.
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u/SuspiciousGrass9942 8h ago
Wiped twice in RFC because of this. My group tried to skip the troggs on the left side, but some low-level player accidentally pulled them, so we ended up having to fight all 8 of them. I've done this instance so many times and never seen this shit happen before. The best part? You actually need them for a quest.
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u/EnergizeThis42 9h ago
This is exactly what Blizzard seems to be overlooking. The first dungeon run is great because of the quest XP, but after that the rewards fall off a cliff.
Someone actually tested a repeat BFD run and got 6.6k XP an hour compared to 15.8k grinding mobs outside.
I don’t need dungeons to be the fastest way to 60. I just want to run them a few times for gear, XP, or to help friends without feeling like I’m wasting my time.
Blizzard keeps talking about the social leveling journey, but running dungeons with other players is part of that journey too.
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u/TheClassicAndyDev 8h ago
I ran bfd, level 25. Fully rested. Sleeping bag buff. Food exp buff.
Came out with 3 bars of exp.
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u/Fourfifteen415 9h ago
As a healer I won't charge I just won't make myself available. Historically if someone pings me for a dungeon and I have time I'll go. I'd much rather heal than wand. As it stands now I'll take my instant invite once do the quests then never do that dungeon again.
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u/jackidaytona6 8h ago
You forgot to mention.
It’s fucking lame.
I want to level (reasonably efficiently) with my friends while grinding dungeons.
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u/trashtiernoreally 10h ago
Just make Boosting a lifetime bannable offense.
"Just" do the one thing they've been deathly allergic to since their founding as a company.
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u/sanitysshadow 8h ago
All very valid and continually brought up and seemingly dismissed since the change. It's a very shortsighted "solution" to boosting and cleave groups, find a solution that fixes the problem without all the unintended consequences. There have been plenty of good suggestions thrown about over the last month.
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u/netchris22 7h ago
Boosting is already dead in forever because xp is turned off if a mob is gray for any party member.
Spellcleave is also dead because mage slow % and duration were nerfed so they can't kite. Paladins can't tank the aoe pulls either because consecrate is capped at 4 mobs.
These are not suggestions, all of this is in forever right now.
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u/bitterbuff 9h ago
I honestly don’t know how I’m going to level a healer class without a dedicated group to carry me through quests in the open world.
I leveled a Resto Druid on the beta and things were going fine before the dungeon quest xp nerfs. I prioritized choosing healing and spell power gear from dungeons and quests because I was struggling to keep up with heals due to base spell power/healing nerfs. After the quest xp nerfs, I basically stalled out around level 22 when I finished with BFD. I lacked the gear to play feral for quests due to the reason stated previously. Questing as Balance at low levels wasn’t viable.
Dual spec needs to come online way sooner or we need massive changes to dungeon XP. Probably both honestly.
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u/Dont_Forget_My_Name 8h ago
Druid is probably the easiest to do both by far. You spec in the Balance tree because it has better healing talents until you get to 30 anyway.
Nature's Splendor is absolutely broken for healing, you get 4% chance for your heals to crit and Genesis increases the HoT AND the initial heal for Regrowth. Healing 1-20 doesn't require a healing spec at all, just some caster gear(that you will have from being balance) and after 20 you spam your 20 mana Wrath fishing for Clearcasting procs then spend that on a Regrowth or HT and you are basically DPSing for free.
The Resto tree doesn't outheal balance until after you get Swiftmend, NS and Imp Rejuv and even at the point where it breaks even you loose all the great DPS talents in Balance. By the time you really need to be Resto to heal you will have Dual Spec.
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u/TechnicianMuch9889 9h ago
I love healing, I want to heal my way to 60 in a reasonable amount of time.
I never imagined that would be a crazy ask but here we are.
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u/darkeayras 8h ago
Weird, completely opposite of my experience. Levelled a balance and healed as balance. Also never stalled post quest xp nerf, did you skip either DM or WC? I finished bfd around lvl 23, did sfk even though had no quests there but wanted gear. Finally did a small amount of quests while prepping for excavation site and jumped into that around level 24-25. Then moved on to city of dalaran. Did 14-30 mostly from dungeons and some questing here and there.. but definitely a lot less questing than classic. 70% of my xp was from dungeons and their quests.
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u/wartortlechortle 7h ago
This was very very similar to my experience.
I also find some of these numbers people are pulling out to be questionable, I did not do a single dungeon that awarded less than 1/3 a level from xp and there's people saying they got only 3 bars from one dungeon?
I have a healer friend who went with me and I don't think we did a single quest that wasn't directly related to a dungeon and we absolutely blasted to 30. And that was after the dungeon quest xp nerf.
Some of these people cannot have actually played the beta or are not actually trying to be efficient.
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u/Independent-Dark4559 9h ago
As a tank player, I can confirm I’ll do hard reserving on items. Sorry for the inconvinience.
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u/CanadianHockeySyrup 9h ago
I just won’t take anyone that can roll on any DPS loot I need for my solo leveling journey.
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u/Pepper_Jack_Cheese 8h ago
Same. Sorry rogues/hunters/shamans but I ain’t takin ya unless I’m literally only there for quests (bfd for example)
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u/So_Full_Of_Fail 8h ago
I need to find a tank to pair my priest with to level and HR the 1 and done dungeon gear with.
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u/LordDustIV 9h ago edited 3h ago
I don't think I've been in a dungeon group that didn't skip every possible trash pack since 2006
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u/RedundantDuplication 7h ago edited 6h ago
After a break of over a decade I’m coming back to WoW. One of the main reasons was the enjoyment from tanking/healing compared to other games I’ve been playing that felt very less role-specific. Nothing quite scratched that itch.
I have no incentive to run dungeons more than once now. I’ll just move toward end game faster so I can tank and heal where the gear will be more meaningful.
I have seen good random groups are elite quest mobs. There is decent open world interaction when the quest is kill X number of creatures. But I am not calling to them or playing with them as long as I do in dungeons. You get to know players way better in dungeons.
I see it as a massive L overall. Nerf boosted runs or whatever you’re trying to do, but this is not a net “more social interaction.”
Edit: spelling
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u/Bohya 8h ago
Every single one of your points was a blatantly obvious outcome of the dungeon EXP nerfs. Any competent developer who understands their own game will be able to see the rammifications of such a design decision. This leads me to believe that Activision-Blizzard do know, and that this is entirely intentional. To them it is justified. The problem is that they consider it a justified change, so don't expect them to compromise on this at all until they see the subscriber numbers plummet.
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u/rr770 9h ago edited 9h ago
- People will drop mid dungeon because they got what they need (gear, quest, quest item). Why bother completing the dungeon for little to no rewards?
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u/Betaateb 6h ago
And this is made even worse with the mega servers. On a normal vanilla server, you do that shit a few times and people are putting you on blast and you stop getting groups. On the megaservers there is no such thing as reputation for the most part. For anyone to remember you at all you have to be a Margrave spam trolling for 24/7 for two weeks straight in trade chat.
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u/Any_Possibility_1984 7h ago
Part of what has brought me to WoW Forever from other games (FFXI, FFXIV) is the dungeon content -- I really liked entering Hall of Thanes at 14 and doing some stuff, then hitting level 15 inside as a result. Looking forward to doing dungeons while leveling up is a major motivator for me, so seeing them become less valuable is unfortunate.
I also fall into the category where I'll try and run a dungeon 3-5+ times while leveling just to get a good feel for it and see how it can play out differently, but there's virtually no reason to do this with a significant exp nerf.
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u/SumOhDat 3h ago
I just don’t understand what world the developers are living in if they think questing is social? If I see you at my quest location, you are probably trying to farm the same quest items as me and it just leads to frustration rather than a common goal…
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u/Vivid_Succotash_6298 3h ago
Ok, real question, and be honest.
How many of you guys actually group up for quests without it being absolutely needed?
And if you are in a questing group with random people, do you try to talk to them?
Cause i'm gonna be real fucking honest here, i personally do not group up unless its a quest i absolutely cannot do on my own, or if im killing a named npc and other people that needs him show up, then ill throw them an invite so they dont have to wait for the respawn.
And i definitively don't talk to a stranger thats gonna leave the group as soon as he finishes his quest.
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u/dabinski 2h ago
Honestly, I do send group invites almost reflexively if the quest I'm doing isn't "Collect X __" on average i group for quests once every play session - mine are about 2 hrs long these days
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u/Star-Hero 9h ago
For me at least, I am just going to do the dungeons for the love of the game 🤷♂️. Break up questing a bit etc I'm not looking to maximise xp / hour or anything.
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u/Competitive-Walk-575 7h ago
Actually this change is great from a boosting angle - after I rush to 60 by solo questing I’ll be able to pick up all the shareable dungeon quests and sell boosts for casuals or alts to get quest runs with no loot competition. People will pay out the wazoo since most of the experience comes from quests and they don’t have to chance someone else winning the loot that drops, I’m gonna make bank.
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u/PositiveFroyo9790 9h ago
I agree. One of my favorite ways to level is pugging dungeons as a tank or healer. Now, it sounds like this will be nerfed. Absolutely moronic change.
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u/swordsfish 7h ago
Hard reserving stuff is just next level stupid for these dungeons
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u/kofeineCoder 6h ago
I agree but for healers and tanks, after quests are done they will check the drops and when asked to tank / heal they will state: "Ok, but I want to reserve <item_name>" to make it worth their time.
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u/bigmdawg27110 10h ago
Gotta sell restedXP to everyone. Nerf dungeons xp harder so more people buy it
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u/Comfortable_Note6523 6h ago
It’s just up to us tanks and healers to be what we want to see in the game. Stop worrying about others and control what you can control, yourself. Be the change. I will tank and heal all the dungeons for free as many times as people need because that’s what I enjoy and what I think is the correct thing to do.
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u/CC0106 9h ago
I think most is true
But I don’t think people are gonna go into wc and do a full clear , or a brd if that matters
And if people wants to charge for a service they would regardless of xp, at 60 especially
The rest is quite true, if I don’t have every quest it’s not even worth an hour to group up and go, then eventually groups become scarce
Doesn’t even make sense “we made 9 new dungeons for you with new bosses and epic loot” but you should go quest outside
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u/MrMacduggan 9h ago edited 8h ago
Of all the posts about this problem, I feel like you've done the best job of presenting actual cultural issues around the change. Your list of grievances are worth flagging and you've actually moved the needle on how I feel about it.
I feel like it should work like this:
If you just need XP from monsters: dungeoning repeatedly should not really be worth it compared to questing or going to a different dungeon.
If you need XP from monsters and gear but don't have quests: repeating a dungeon should be competitive with questing because of the gear rewards, but a little less XP-efficient than questing.
If you need XP from monsters and have quests (maybe the gear is relevant too): It should be a no-brainer that you want to complete the dungeon asap.
So basically, they need to find the XP amount where feels good running the dungeon a couple times until you get the gear you were hoping for, but no more than that.
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u/YaoCrane 10h ago
IMO tanking is a unthankful job and they should have been charging since forever. Healer too.
Before someone has the chance:
I leveled prot Warrior and Paladin and did some dungeons runs and I chuckled a lot seeing people in groupfinder searching for a Tank or heal while playing a class like warrior druid or Paladin.
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u/alaserus 10h ago
I play all roles but mostly tank and healer. Although I would never charge for tanking services, I kind of respect those that do.
It is a thankless role that requires way more effort than the rest. And most DPS seem to almost make it their goal to make your job as tank way harder than it needs to be.
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u/Background_Help325 10h ago
That’s always happened though.
Watch some dude yelling in lfg for an hour for a tank.
Dude is a warrior, don’t point that out tho they get kinda mad about it.
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u/NoCheezeMovement 9h ago
Being a tank has the advantage of choosing your group and ensuring no one is there that will compete with your drops
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u/Hoyle33 9h ago
Sometimes I wonder if they’re so concerned about boosting because they want us to buy a future level boost… Of course they said it wouldn’t happen but they said that before and lied
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u/City_Raine 9h ago
Where do people stand on the tank side, would you rather have a tank that doesnt know the dungeon and deoesnt try to skip? Becsuse im 50/50 on rolling a tank but was siding with not because it thought eveyone wants these streamlined runs.
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u/Abject-Constant784 8h ago
Honestly... If I'm going into a dungeon, I expect one of 2 things.
- We kill everything in our way, screw skips, they're for wimps.
- We wipe.
There's no in between.
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u/City_Raine 8h ago
I like you.
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u/Bloodmark3 8h ago
You do what the tank says. If I'm learning a dungeon and want to explore the whole thing, you're all coming with me. If I know the dungeon and want to speed run it, we're doing that.
But if anyone in the group ever asks for anything different, like a specific boss or something they want to do, I'll 100% agree and we can do that.
If anyone ever gets pissy with you just remember, you dont need them. You only need your baby girl, your healer. The dps can find another dungeon.
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u/SnooConfections6777 8h ago
You’re thinking about this wrong. You’re the tank lead the filthy dps where to go. If they don’t like it they can leave
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u/SoungaTepes 8h ago
“Do you want a tank that doesn’t know the dungeon”
A lot of people need to still learn dungeons
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u/braendebruger 8h ago
Brother, roll a tank. If you dont know how a dungeon works, just announce it at the start. I did that in tbc, and worked fine. 1% of people crash out over nothing, but don't let that get to you
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u/MinimumFeedback219 8h ago
I've been playing the beta nonstop and havent had a single dungeon group do this. It is a non-issue.
It's so obvious that people here spend more time thinking about the game than actually playing.
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u/Mr-B0jangles 7h ago
It’s not an issue in beta cuz it’s locked to level 30 and people will run the dungeons multiple times for gear. Not gonna be the case as much when the game is live. Use some fucking common sense. THE BETA EXPERIENCE DOES NOT MIRROR THE LIVE EXPERIENCE
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u/The_Horse_Tornado 5h ago
Same and thank you. I’ve maxed all 3 tank specs and leveled every other DPS spec. Did all the dungeons on each. Never once had this issue.
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u/Manwesulimo85 8h ago
Noone wants those streamlined runs. Reddit is a very low percentage of actual players. Im going to main healer and i will run dungeos several times for loot. If you like tanking then go for it. Tanks and healers make the rules anyway
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u/ajscherer 7h ago
I’m a healer and I will be doing multiple runs because it’s more fun. I also feel like my gold goes up faster doing dungeon runs than wanding down mobs as a solo priest.
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u/spookydooks 9h ago
Some dungeons being skipped entirely [ Alliance have no reason to run Shadow Fang Keep since there are no quests and no mob XP ]
Paladins and warlocks have a quest for there
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u/Automatic_Loss_2837 8h ago
They only needed to fix the boosting while keeping the rest the same.
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u/mansadwoman 7h ago
Boosting is ALREADY fixed. If a mob is grey to anyone in the group (like a level 60 if theyre in a low level dungeon) no one gets xp for it. Boosting is only possible in the last few levels with this system. First implemented in SoM iirc
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u/nemestrinus44 7h ago
This will mostly present itself in about a month after launch when people have already ran each dungeon once to get the legacy points and then they don’t have much reasons to run them ever again even if leveling an alt it’d probably be faster to just quest at that point
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u/WheelerDan 7h ago
i think you have to hit the point of gear reserving a little harder. If people know they are only going to run a dungeon once they are going to need everything its their only chance.
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u/LongLonMan 9h ago
Another point not made, for a game called “forever,” I imagine after 6 months, it will become increasingly difficult to find tanks and healers as the initial influx of players is gone after a new launch and it becomes a more regular volume of concurrent players.
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u/ChorizoBlanco 9h ago
When I host a dungeon as a tank you bet I’m not inviting any physical DPS that can roll on things I can wear since I’m only doing them once for the quest.
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u/Allurai 7h ago
stop reporting this thread bozos, it's fine - discuss