r/classicwow • u/erre94 • 15d ago
Forever Beta Feedback When you finally get that sweet rank upgrade
Technically a dps upgrade.
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u/Gulbeleglim 15d ago
If they changed how important spell coeficients are compared to base damage, adding spell coeficient to tooltips should be necesary to avoid the frustrating feeling of not getting stronger with new ranks.
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u/Seranta 15d ago
The coefficient is baked into the tooltip, and unchanged from rank 3 and onwards. All wrath ranks from 3 and up have a 57% coefficient.
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u/Longjumping-Fun-661 15d ago
Adding the spell coefficient into the tool tip and not baking it into the math without stating the coefficient is what OP said and I agree. If they want new blood playing wow forever, new blood has no freaking clue how scaling is, what it is. If it states x dmg + spell power ×0.57 then its good. Absent that info is missing.
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u/Seranta 15d ago
You would not change what OP was complaining about though. Like it said 41-46 + 57% spell power rank 4 and then 42-47 + 57% spell power rank 5, do you think people would feel "oh nice, this isn't frustrating at all"? If coefficients scaled with rank, sure, it would be nice. But they stop scaling at lvl 14, it is likely just bloat to the average player. Maybe an advanced tooltip function in the settings would be cool though.
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u/alaysian 15d ago
Why would you even use the new spell that costs 25% more mana then?
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u/Seranta 15d ago
At 40 you start losing 5% coeff per lvl, so 57% * 0.95 = 54%. At 44 you're down to 42%.
Also the ranks start scaling a bit faster at rank 6, rank 7 to 8 is +20 damage for 8 mana. Rank 4 and 5 are particularly bad.
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u/alaysian 15d ago
So rather than making new spells better they make your old spells worse? That is like the opposite of game design theory. Rule 1 is never take power away from the player unless it is meant to be something significant in the story. If you have to nerf something, that is one thing, but to do it by design?
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u/Soulspawn 15d ago
Looking at the average player, I think they made the right choice.
A better idea would be to have an option to turn on advanced spell details. It shows the spell damage base + spell power etc
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u/SputnikDX 15d ago
Is that an option you need to turn on because none of my spells give me info on how much my spell power is effecting them.
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u/EnjoyerOfBeans 15d ago
So what's the point of using rank 5 vs rank 4? The mana efficiency is awful
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u/Typical_Effect_9054 15d ago
DPS downgrade when you factor in mana cost.
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u/Infamous-Sky-5367 15d ago
And in combination with the spellrank downgrade nerf it will be even more annoying until they find the balance
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u/hardcider 15d ago
Agreed, I have over the baseline needed for my class and I still run oom doing stuff fairly easily. They could have spent the time better instead of this mess with spellpower.
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u/RTMidgetman 15d ago
I feel like in the lower levels they should have left it untouched and maybe starting toying with this kind of stuff at like 40+
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u/sarcophagusGravelord 15d ago
Yeah this new system feels kinda ass for casters. It was cool & unique that gear impacted some classes more while spell ranks made a bigger difference for casters (which honestly makes sense thematically. A warrior gets a better weapon, a mage becomes better at their spellcraft).
Felt really satisfying to get a new spell rank in classic especially because of how expensive it eventually got so the decision felt meaningful. A lot the enjoyment from leveling has been gutted with this change.
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u/Soulspawn 15d ago
Sure you got that nice spike of damage but then it was just downhill for 7 levels. Until the next rank, having SP be more common should smooth the curve, but the issue is that base damage has to be "just right" or we end up with the above situation.
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u/negativeonhand 15d ago
And unfortunately almost all of the spell power available at lower levels is behind professions. I did all of elwynn/westfall/rr/loch modan/duskwood and there’s maybe 20 sp worth of quest rewards. 2 rings with 5 sp from lm/duskwood, and chest and staff with 2 and 4 respectively from elwynn. Dungeon quest rewards from excavation and stockades gave me like 4sp in upgrades, which is nothing.
The only good caster weapons with 20-30+ available are from dungeon drops, and if you don’t get it the first time, you can either sit in a low xp dungeon or just move on, you suffer either way.
On launch, people won’t be crafting low level stuff as much as we are atm, and casters especially will suffer. I currently have around 90 sp and just dinged 30 last night. I am weaker than a similar level mage in classic, because it takes the sp I have to even match the base dmg in vanilla, but in classic you have maybe 30-40 frost damage from basic crafted azure silk greens.
Casters look doomed with current tuning honestly. Looking at the spell power amount from endgame gear currently in the game, we are barely matching the spell power needed to even match vanilla wow damage.
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u/CrzyJek 15d ago
They should have left caster spells alone.
Gear still mattered for casters even without dumping spell power on it. New ranks felt good and it was exciting when you leveled up and unlocked a new rank. But gear mattered for this because casters, unlike melee, are limited by their mana pool. And higher spell ranks do higher damage, but also cost significantly more mana to cast. So you getting gear with bigger intellect numbers felt good. Because it meant you could cast more of your toolkit before going OOM.
It did not need changing. The current system just doesn't make sense from a design standpoint.
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u/Thanksforthatman2 15d ago
This. They've made the joy of getting new spell upgrades gone and instead tried to replace it with gear, which no one cares about as we'll be getting to 60 in a few days anyway.
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u/Kamakahah 15d ago
One of the executive producers mentioned the design of the game is "journey before destination." I get the feeling people rushing to the end are going to be disappointed and move on quickly.
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u/Drasha1 14d ago
They really screwed some classes by designing them around level 60 instead of the journey of leveling.
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u/tenshosei 15d ago
I feel like if they wanted to make weapons matter for casters they would need to convert the weapon dps on those to spell power.
That way going from 15 dps to 20dps on the weapon means u get 33% more spell power on the weapon (without considering sp on the rest of the gear).
As it stands, casters are encouraged to down rank their spells as higher rank spells cost much more mana without adding significant dmg.
Sp also fights with int/spirit/stam for item weighting, so if u tunnel spell power ur mana pool is going to be very limited, and down ranking becomes an attractive option to avoid going oom
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u/Aggressive-Juice4162 14d ago
the whole reason for doing this change was trying to solve a problem that didn't need solving. one dev went "hey that sounds cool" then they spent who knows how many man hours trying to get it to work and we're left with this slop
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u/MarcAbaddon 15d ago
I love Forever but I think it could use 2 more months in the oven and longer beta to higher cap.
The new content is great, but the gameplay mechanics overhauls are still in a rough shape. Tuning is all over the place and ranks do not feel rewarding. And things like adding power shifting and crit back in... I agree with those, but doing this in a few weeks beta is a sign that things are still very sketchy. My belief is that the quite successfully secret keeping came at the cost of testing.
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u/Copponex 15d ago
I don’t like the higher cap thing. A big part of forever to me is to rediscover the world. I don’t want to know everything and all the little secrets before the game is even out. Luckily, the development doesn’t stop at launch, and they still have a ~month to clean things up a bit.
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u/MgoBlue1352 15d ago
That's why I stopped at like 19.5. I did just enough to see that they had made a decent amount of changes and there were some new things that I found and that was enough for me to know I didn't want to spoil it for when I played for real on Nov.4th and beyond.
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u/assblast420 15d ago
There's a real risk of burn-out if the beta lasts too long. I think it's better to get the game released and then do frequent balance changes/fixes where necessary. Not everything has to be perfect for launch
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u/Seamonsterx 15d ago
They could shut the beta down for a while
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u/EETrainee 15d ago
who gives a shit long-term, its a beta. They need maybe 10k people to reliably test edge cases, everyone else can go back to retail/era/tbc/other flavors.
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u/BioDefault 15d ago
It's not just about keeping enough beta testers around, it about maintaining interest. Too long of a lull could make a pretty big hit in the actual player base.
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u/21stGun 15d ago
Although realistically if leveling sucks (for example due to layering) it will severely kill the hype and gut the playerbase. A lot of people will only level once to 60 if at all. So there is a lot at stake to get that right.
Itemization and balance is something they can absolutely iterate on as raids etc. Releases
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u/Zargabraath 15d ago
If they haven’t got the basics right after several years in development what makes you think a few more weeks would do it
The problem is the same problem blizzard has had since about 2010, competence. The concept of classic plus being good means nothing when blizzard is incapable of executing on it.
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u/DankuTwo 15d ago
The funny thing is the biggest problems Forever has are problems that went well out of their way to introduce. Dungeon XP, spell ranks, and layering/sharding were not problems 20 years ago. These are new problems the devs added instead of adding more content and tweaking builds.
The fact that TurtleWoW added more zones and more dungeons with a tiny fraction of the capacity is downright embarrassing.
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u/MarcAbaddon 15d ago
Because you get a lot of the basics tested when you have a few thousand testers. They already corrected several important things in the beta when seeing the data and getting feedback. Given the secrecy it is likely they had a very small testing team.
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u/Uvanimor 15d ago
This is my exact concern; blizzard haven’t cooked hard enough with forever and they’re not exactly known for rapidly changing their trajectory… ever.
IMO I wanted forever to be closer to SoD, or even be WOTLK-like in terms of abilities and class design… turns out we’re getting vanilla with some bug-fixes and turning 1-button rotations into 2-button rotations…
I worry forever might just fall flat on its face after the hype settles; the vanilla crowd won’t like it due to the changes, and the players yearning for a OSRS-like overhaul will get bored because it’s too vanilla-like.
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u/Musicduude 15d ago
The biggest concern I have by far is the sharding system. As others have said, classes can and will be adjusted but the way they're doing the sharding absolutely takes me out of the game and bums me out. Sharding will impact everyone, regardless of class or faction. In its current form it just doesn't cut it for an MMORPG.
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u/LordUpton 15d ago edited 15d ago
Same. I've died multiple times now because I'm doing a quest in a cave or a fort. Another player shows up and invites me and we go about our business. As soon as the quest finishes the party disbands and I instantly get layered and immediately aggro 3/4 mobs and if I try and flee I will aggro another 6.
Why is it that randomly I'll get a message about swapping layers with a timer that I can click to change now. Yet the game still has circumstances where it force instant layering and it never feels good.
It also breaks immersion as soon as you swap zones and half a dozen people disappear and a new set show up. It also ruins overworld PVP when you begin to attack someone near the edge of a border and their new win condition is to cross the border to force a layer and survive.
It's basically my only gripe with Forever that actually ruins the experience for me.
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u/TheServo 15d ago
Things that should be allowed to insta-layer you: 1) Being invited to a party by someone. 2) Possibly entering a new zone (but there are videos showing how jank this is)
Things that should not be allowed to insta-layer you 1) Inviting someone else to your group and they join you 2) Dropping from any group whether you are the party leader or just a member.
I am also concerned but hoping that they can at least address the grouping issues because it makes grouping for questing really crappy.
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u/Tidybloke 15d ago
It needs 6 months more in the oven, but they prefer to rush things out the door and fix them after launch.
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u/100plusRG 15d ago
What i find shocking is the relative lack of updates. The game’s on fire, there are bugs everywhere on very basic things like talents or pets that have functioned for 20 years and the only updates we get are hype videos about blue elves. Par for the course for Blizz I guess.
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u/DankuTwo 15d ago
The secret wasn't kept at all. We all knew Classic+ was coming. They just half-baked it by assigning their B-team with a shoestring budget to make what should be their most important product in at least a decade.
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u/MarcAbaddon 15d ago
We know it was coming, but almost nothing about what it was. There were some wild speculation. Compared to all other releases except SoD, extremely little leaked.
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u/Sea-Angle2718 15d ago
It dowsnt matter, blizz will do chnage after change just like in retail, thats the name of the game, with each change smth will get broken and then later fixed, imagine having a beta for that
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u/Buddha8888 15d ago
Just as with ANY Blizzard game, Live will function as a better Beta test than actual Beta. More players, more pressure on them to fix stuff one way or the other if they're gonna dig in their heels on keeping things "Classic feeling"
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u/DeadscopeNZ 15d ago
So what happens if you dont get good gear (bad luck from drops) and have the most pathetic amount of spell damage. Guess its hardmode
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u/QuietlyDisappointed 15d ago
November 4th is too soon, and I say this as someone who already has annual leave approved for it
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u/Worldly-Shop-3850 15d ago
Before, getting a new skill rank was the dopamine rush. They now moved that to getting new gear for casters. Now, getting new rank spell is meaningless, and in most cases a downgrade when considering mana cost.
And they're now having to do funny things like "when downranking spell significantly lower than player level..." nonsense.
IMO they should just revert it to what it was in vanilla. I dont think anyone asked for that to change.
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u/misterrpg 15d ago
Fully agreed. Revert it all back to vanilla and just increase spell power on all gear but just not as much as it is right now to compensate.
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u/Greendayy77 15d ago
Casters went from being the least dependent class type on gear during leveling to the most dependent of all. Blizzard really went overboard with no middle ground.
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u/Unable-Garage593 15d ago
I'll keep saying it, the whole spell scaling and putting tons of SP from early leveling is a huge unforced error on Blizzard's part.
I think almost NOBODY complained or felt super bad about the way casters scaled during the leveling process.
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u/Montegomerylol 15d ago
Nobody felt "super bad" about it but it's actually one of the oldest criticisms in the game. Caster itemization while leveling (and for a time back in 2004, even at max level) was just dull. It even comes up in World of Roguecraft.
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u/knivkast 15d ago
Casters suck so hard on the beta, please meet somewhere in the middle on this, Blizzard.
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u/plants4life262 15d ago
Yeah they really screwed this one up. That spell costs roughly 30% more. The amount of spell power and coefficient differential needed to make it better is astronomical. Their math isn’t mathing.
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u/just_some_guy2000 15d ago
I leveled balance to 30. It feels not fun at all. My 14 priest hits nearly as hard as wrath did at level 20 with a wand and no mana expenditure. I really want to like balance. I really want to play boomkin.
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u/Lazyleader 15d ago
When they announced this change I was like, wait thats exactly the same error diablo 3 did and one of the reasons why it's shit. Asymmetry is what makes a role playing game actually feel like a role playing game. Casters having spell ranks vs melees having weapons is a good way to distinguish between these fundamentally different archetypes.
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u/FUCK_your_new_design 15d ago
Exactly this, I also thought of Diablo 3's soulless, formulaic, incremental systems, which was also inspired by retail WoW back then. Nobody asked for this change. It's impossible to balance at this scale.
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u/DankuTwo 15d ago
The amateurs in charge of Forever managed to break at least as many things as they improved....it's honestly pretty impressive.
"Oh, but there's scaling!" OK, but that's not in the tooltip, so how TF am I supposed to know? You think your average player is gonna trawl through Blizzard interviews to get this sort of info?
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u/Boring-Passenger-598 15d ago
The whole spell rank coefficient and the addition of items having a ton a spell damage thing didn’t need to be in the game. It’s an unforced error on blizzards part thinking they could design a better game than the developers before them.
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u/Giotto 15d ago
Huge waste of dev time to touch things that worked just fine. No one ever complained about this, no one asked for or wanted these changes.
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u/Cybannus 15d ago
The spell damage thing makes sense if they were going to remove ranks completely. I am guessing at some point that was the plan but they got scared and tried to combine both systems into one and that is why its so broken.
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u/glormosh 15d ago
They've essentially brieflt "studied" a finely tuned ecosystem and quickly started making changes, that sparked other issues, that sparked other issues.
By the time they're done with this game, at any given moment you're not going to know why you're playing it. You'll always be indifferent with how little of an upgrade an item even is.
You'll never get your chase items but everyone around you will have them. Based on how They've performed to date, I suspect its going to feel punishing like you didn't get the right legendary in legion.
The best way I can describe this games feeling of progression will be walking forward across an even field that extends for. You can't really tell the earth is curved, nothing feels like it's changing, but maybe the scenery is. Then blizzard will gaslight you and say its in your head because the earth is curved and grouns level perception is playing tricks on your mind.
The retail players will attack you for saying "why arent you playing for the fun of it all"
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u/bulltank 15d ago
I think the problem was, unless they were going to continue to make really unoptimized gear like classic had, you're going to end up in a massive power creep by having the same spells PLUS the new optimized gear.
How many classes actually wear their tier pieces in classic WoW compared to how many classes wore their tier pieces in 2005.
There is a real dilemma here. What is the right answer?
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u/Ok-Piglet7 15d ago
Would you tho? Classic casters at low level with gear did way less dmg than a hunter or a rogue, just add low amounts of spell power to gear, no need to add 40 spell dmg on a lvl 30 wep like we have right now
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u/Hazelphoenixfire 15d ago
For some reason, we keep having to suffer that same hubris from studio “writers” and game designers that want to capture already existing stories. It’s beloved for a reason, and it’s asinine to think you know better.
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u/itsgottabeimportant 15d ago
They should just prune ranks at this point. Pretty fucking stupid design choice they've been making.
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u/Difficult_Wealth8937 15d ago
i upgraded my holy strike and it did 1 more damage. I literally had to do a quintuple take to make sure i wasnt just selecting rank 1.
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u/Kaldrathh 15d ago
Biggest accessibility change: no dps loss for forgetting to put your new abilities on your bars (sarcasm, but only kinda)
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u/RiverLilyArts 15d ago
Can they please revert to how casters played before? I don't want spell damage on my pre-20 gear, getting spell damage in later levels felt HUGE and was so much fun for me, it was another one of those vanilla milestones. In the same vein, getting new spell ranks felt great as well and was a source of drive until I could get more spell power!
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u/Tootskinfloot 15d ago
Well worth the huge early game silver cost and mana increase that means you actually lose dps.
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u/Rubzje 15d ago
Just stop spells scaling with level and only with rank (and spell power).
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u/redux44 15d ago
They really need to be gutting the price to buy rank upgrades if this is the type of power increase they are offering.
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u/TerrorTedje 15d ago
Might as well just remove spellranks if it stays like this.
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u/Aggressive-Juice4162 14d ago
spell ranks are a critical part of vanilla. if they removed them i would not even launch the game because it means everything that makes vanilla great will just be chopped out down the line anyway
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u/Cisseroo 15d ago
They copied OSRS and saw “+1 max hit = huge deal” and thought they’d cracked the code.
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u/herby_the_chef 15d ago
I sometimes wonder if the devs have tested content at all levels themselves even. They havent came out and told us the scaling will work at higher levels so have they tested it themselves?
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u/DeadEskimo 15d ago
Druids got fucked across the board.
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u/No-Article-Particle 15d ago
Isn't their feral similarly strong as before? (I wanna play druid, I thought overall the balance was OK)
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u/DeadEskimo 15d ago
Feral tree is okay for bear. For cat it basically has nothing. You now gotta spend an extra 3 talents points to play a worse version of the degenerate powershifting, you got a capstone talent that does basically nothing for you. Furor has been change to make using bear form a punishment.
Im not even gonna go into the nerfed heals and spells to make sure you can't play as a hybrid. I think whoever is in charge of druid don't like them.
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u/Lucaslouch 15d ago
we now have omen of clarity for free, dps scales with weapon instead of level, talent tree is globally similar. with some aggressive points changing (only 2 points needed for 6% crit, 4% hit for 2 talent points…)
the major change comes from the powershifting that has been reworked for a talent with an 8 second CD, when talented.
overall not bad changes. my feeling is that we should be fine if not a bit stronger than in classic in end game. but we will need to see in a raid environment with other classes
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u/lhswr2014 15d ago
Bears are eating good lol. We got more QoL improvements out of anyone. More things usable in bear form(potions, rage pots, natures grasp), weapon scaling, swipe scaling with AP, armor scaling with defense, windfury procs, bark skin in form. We can also root in doors, which is an easy CC to throw out to start a pull.
We are literally setup to be god tier tanks right now and it’s awesome. We will take little to no damage, have a massive health pool, and be absolute threat machines capable of keeping up with pallys on aoe threat because of the conc nerf, and likely better single target threat than warriors. It’s going to be sick.
The rest of em got it rough though…
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u/Thekingchem 15d ago
This is what happens when you balance for an endless level 60 without considering 1-59
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u/discus_notathrowaway 15d ago
This is exactly what they are doing: they are clearly only testing at 60 and have no idea how the fuck the game works from 1-59.
My jaw dropped when on that interview they said "Imp was actually strong due to the lifetap=pet mana talent in their testing". Yea bro, Imp does literally fucking nothing until you have like 300sp, are deep Demonology, and have Demonic Brand on a target (but all the pets benefit from this anyway). Until that point, Imp is literally useless. Also, why is Imp rank 1 Firebolt cut in half? Why are you expecting a level 1 warlock to log in with 60 spell power?
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u/Thekingchem 14d ago
Which sucks because 90% of the game is played at 1-59. They even said it's about the journey not the destination.
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u/smeeagain93 15d ago
They absolutely butchered druids into oblivion. Shape shifting between bear, caster and cat was THE core druid feeling I remember from classic wow and now they are forcing a 1:1 PvE cat retail approach down my throat I absolutely do not want.
I do not care about cat charge... just make me shift into bear and use the bear charge, then shift back into cat. That is exactly what the class should feel like.
Switching into bear gives buff x, switching out of bear gives buff y. Switching into cat gives buff a, switching out of cat gives buff b. Things like that is what would be much more in line with classic druid instead of staying in cat form 100% the time if you want to DPS in feral.
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u/Jazzun 15d ago
The core Druid feeling in vanilla was shape shifting out of bear, using two heals, then not being able to shift to cat because you were OOM.
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u/Horizonthegod 15d ago
Honestly think we should have been able to try out classes at 40 but maybe only on dummies or scaling the low lvl dungeons at least for the beta.
Its hard to try out specs like Spriest and boomkin since we are missing so much from the kit and even at 40 we dont have everything iirc
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u/Lynx7 15d ago
They really didn't need to touch spells at all. This is a retail dev issue, they insist on redesigning systems every expansion and then it just creates problems that they then spend the entire expansion fixing. Ive played casters my entire life and I've always been thrilled to get a new weapon.
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u/nekdev_ 15d ago
Indie company
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u/Zargabraath 15d ago
It’s ironic because when blizzard made wow in the early 2000s they were a small indie company
Since going public with Activision in the late 2000s the quality of their output has just nosedived. No coincidence either
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u/konohasaiyajin 15d ago
small indie company
Maybe in 1995. By wow time, Warcraft 1+2+3, Diablo 1+2, and Starcraft were already out.
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u/amatas45 15d ago
Oh yeah small indie company with an in-house cinematic team
Sure
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u/argyllcampbell 15d ago
Is it better to not buy these until you get more spell power?
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u/erre94 15d ago
The ranks have the same scaling. Its only when you level up that the lower ranks gain worse scaling.
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u/FishbangGG 15d ago
Shadow priests get shadow word death, penance, etc, shamans got lava burst, warlocks get incinerate, mages get ice lance, frostfire, arcane blast. Balance druids get jack shit. Sure, damage might be good at 60 with proper gear, but why do i have 4 abilities when everyone else has a ton? oh, wow, they put swarm on balance tree. Incredible. cant contain my enthsiasm
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u/Colonel_Planet 15d ago
Have you looked at lava burst? Its uhh, along with all of shamans lightning spells, completely dogshit tier. At least wrath costs zero mana for its piddly damage, while shaman gets 80 mana lightning bolts that deal 100 damage on a good day, or a 100 damage chain lightning for 300+ mana is fun
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u/Excaliburrover 14d ago
You can root 3 mobs and double dot them. They take damage from 3 spells while not doing any damage to you.
Or if you don't want to spec into that you can go the Starfire route and in that case you still have 4 spells to press.
Also as a druid your roots are finally a nice tool for CC both in the open world and in dungeons.
Idk what you are bitching about, I can't wait to play a caster druid.
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u/Electronic-Shop-308 15d ago
What do you mean, currently mage really only have 2 abilities, frostbolt and ice lance, and ice lance actively makes mage LESS fun to play because it replaces every other shatter option, the mana situation is so bad that mage drinks after p much every mob, you cant fish for clearcasts anymore, CoC and Nova are both bugged, its literally miserable compared to the other classes ive tried (priest hunter shaman)
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u/One-Patient4248 15d ago
I think the ranks increase spell power scaling, that's why they removed base line spell dmg increase.
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u/selexin 15d ago edited 15d ago
Then remove ranks altogether at that point. It's a bad design/implementation currently
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u/erre94 15d ago
Not quite. If you level up alot, the lower ranks of spells get a lowered scaling. So when you buy a new rank, it does nothing until a bunch of levels later.
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u/ReignClaw 15d ago edited 15d ago
Jeez that's rough. One of the main things of vanilla leveling is feeling the powerboost of a new item or spell rank.
Now all you get is your spells costing progressively more mana with no downranking?
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u/youngliam 15d ago
So the coefficient diminishes as you level instead of just giving higher ranks better coefficients?
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u/Dasbeerboots 15d ago
No. OP just doesn't know what he's talking about. Your spells scale with level until you unlock the next rank. Then it stops scaling. That's when you buy the next rank to continue the scaling. It's been like that in every version of WoW.
The reason why we are seeing much lower numbers on the next rank is because the base damage was reduced in favor of higher spell power numbers from gear. The goal is to keep the damage numbers the same as they were in Classic, assuming full questing greens. If you get big items with big spell power bonuses, you will feel more powerful than in Classic.
This is a nothing burger.
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u/erre94 15d ago
Yes
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u/Live-Habit-6115 15d ago
That's awful game design tbh
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u/konohasaiyajin 15d ago
Also if the scaling is such a major part of the calculation, why not tell me what the scaling coefficient is in the tooltip?
They make a shit system, and then don't show you the info you need to even understand it.
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u/awaken471 15d ago
Lol I disliked the system itself and having to bind everything again on keybinds but thought there were upsides. Now I can see clearly that it's just plain unintuitive dogshit design. Just remove it as it is, we have other gold sinks in the game (BMAH) and others can be created
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u/ArjanaEU 15d ago
I like that they are trying things.
But this feels like retail styled band-aids.
Like what are we doing. It is supposed to be intuitive. Hidden and modifying spell coeficients are anything but clear.
The spell that is on my bars is not supposed to change in damage or healing if i didnt do anything to it besides level up. How is that hard to understand :(
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u/awaken471 15d ago
I agree, this is one that they're trying to modernize but it just shows that you need so many band-aids and hidden scalings/coefficients that it's the most unintuitive and unfun feature I've seen so far. Buying a skill should never feel bad, specially a rank up
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u/Dasbeerboots 15d ago
This is just misinformation. Your spells scale with level until you reach the next rank, then it stops scaling. That's when you buy the next rank.
https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/1wkjbz7/spells_are_scaling_with_level/
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u/Coycington 15d ago
you get rank 4 at lv 22 and rank 5 at level 30. the spell power coefficiencies should be at max values by then already.
currently i think most lv 30 druids use a rank below the maximum available one because scaling is the same, base damage values are basically the same, but the mana costs are very different.
i think if a spells mana cost increases by 50% it should at least get a 50% damage increase, no?
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u/DuggerX 15d ago
Spell power coefficients are all wonky below level 20 (as in much lower) but at and above lvl 20 every spell has the same coefficients as classic depending on base cast time. I dont know much about wrath but a 1.5sec cast time gets almost no spell power.
They never touched any of the coefficients and they really need too
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u/zatalak 15d ago edited 15d ago
57% (2/3.5)
71% (2.5/3.5)I didn't look at the rank, my bad. As Oggzor said it's based on the base cast time without talents.
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u/Oggzor 15d ago
But wrath is a 2.5sec cast, there is a 1 sec cast reduction from a talent. Coefficients are always based on the base cast time, before talents are considered. So wrath has a coefficient of 2.5/3.5≈71%, which seems correct based on my testing too.
The sub level 20 pentalty seems to have been removed, instead there is a penalty added based on how many levels ago you could learn the rank. The only skill I have confirmed this for so far is Healing Touch rank 1, which had a penalty kick in at level 18.
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u/EffectiveSwimming136 15d ago
Small correction wrath is a 2 second cast the talent reduces by .5 seconds otherwise rank 1 would be a .5 second cast time
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u/No_Compote_224 15d ago
spell coeficient are based on the cast time but the change in classic is that it's true starting from lv 1, instead of having spells below 20 have reduced coef and anything above having the full coef.
Instead you get full coefficient when the spell level is above your level minus 18 but it lose around 5% of the coefficient per level under than and will reach 0% when using spells around 38 bellow you.In means in most situation it's best to use wrath rank 2 until around lv 26-28, then use rank 3 until lv 32-34 and so on as the mana effiency is way better than the negligeable damage increase (with minimal SP investment or 50SP rank 2 is actually more dps than rank 3 too)
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u/MarxistMagick 15d ago
Took them years to cook up Classic-. Truly incredible things happening over at Blizzard HQ
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u/BuckeyeBentley 15d ago
They should also put the spell coefficient in the tooltip, might help a little if you see that the base damage isn't going up much but the multiplier is? Assuming it is.
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u/SirUrizen 15d ago
the issue is really the mana cost (per second), but that should have been obvious when deciding.. going up a rank and doubling mana cost during leveling feels absolutely dog ass
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u/ZwiebelLegende 15d ago
Looks like an AI adjustment. No human would do this and think that is fine.
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u/omegaonion 15d ago
I agree its bad but I don't think its an AI thing. The human logic is the same as classic - rank 4 stops scaling now while rank 5 keeps going up as you level. However it is just a pathetically low base damage increase.
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u/Allegrian 15d ago edited 15d ago
Retail is ingrained in Aggrend & Co's brains, it was already clear during Sod, and it's clear in forever.
That's why many classes were changed to become like lite versions of the retail ones (mage) and why we see them remove the uniqueness of classic regarding caster gearing, more focused on increasing your mana pool during leveling, while melee classes were always more focused on the gear and weapons for damage.
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u/Tinusers 15d ago
Wrath hits like a truck compared to stuff like shadowbolts though. Sadly not many lock players to flood reddit with posts about the state of lock atm.
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u/discus_notathrowaway 15d ago
Losing my mind daily at the spriests crying on reddit (when they literally got the MOST changes on any class/spec + were only nerfed baseline by 11% and get an insane baseline Death at 32) while warlocks got gutted by 44% median.
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u/SputnikDX 15d ago
When I saw the notes that wrath was undertuned so they buffed it by 50% I knew there was a serious issue.
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u/elensar748 15d ago
I get wanting gear to matter more to casters but all they have done is remove the feeling of getting a new spell rank that hits harder and you notice. Same same