Yo, why is this such a hard concept for people. We want to run dungeons multiple times for a number of reasons. Loot, fun, and xp. If you remove xp from that equation, you get a lot less people running the dungeons which makes it harder to find groups even if you only wanted to run for loot and fun. It a pretty simple concept and there are tons of other ways to nerf powerleveling that don't ruin a huge part of the experience for those of us who like to dungeon grind.
Indeed. I'm not someone who spams dungeons to 60, however I will run dungeons for their quests and specific items that I may want to get. I do know that some people will spam dungeons to 60, especially healers and tanks. Regardless of my opinion over some players choice to utilise this avenue to levelling, I can still acknowledge that their incentive to run dungeons is now gone. There will be far fewer tanks and healers in the dungeon pool, meaning that finding groups will take significantly longer than it otherwise would.
This dungeon experience nerf will still end up negatively impacting players who do not spam dungeons. There are no winners here.
because given the choice, some players would choose the most boring painful experience if it gives them the fastest route. It's absolutely a dev's job to make sure that doesn't happen. This isn't about giving the player total freedom, that is just bonkers for a video game.
Its not the fastest way, never was, and if you think 5 mans are boring, just dont do them. Don't cheer for a change that fucks other people just because you dont understand it
Although it’s a famously incorrect line, “You think you do but you don’t” does actually apply to lots of gaming features. There are so many things that players will do if given the option, even if they know in retrospect that they preferred not having the option.
For example, I think if, next to each flight path npc, you put a mage who, for the same price, could just teleport you to any of the destinations you could fly to, even most people who love that classic wow’s travel is restrictive would spam the teleporter. I do not think this would be good for the game because travel being costly is a core part of what makes Classic WoW feel so large and immersive. But, if given the option to use such a teleporter, the vast majority of players would.
It really is the responsibility and expertise of those who make games to determine which things will frustrate us in such a way that we will find reward or meaning in overcoming them and which things will frustrate us in such a way that we won’t.
👆 this is exactly how I feel about any game with fast travel, quest indicators on the map, it similar time savers. It takes away from the journey for me, but I can't help wanting to optimize it's just how my brain works, practically my career too, so I really appreciate when these can be turned off entirely or aren't provided in the first place
Dungeons are now boing and painful? blizzard should just remove them if thats how people feel. Why did they even bother adding new ones? Dungeon spamming has been a popular MMO activity since the dawn of MMOs
I think saving players from themselves is generally a good strategy but you also shouldn’t tip so far in favor of this that you cut out a piece of content entirely. I think dungeons were fine with maybe a 40% nerf but beyond that is kind of crazy. I think a bigger nerf is fine in the world where they didn’t also nerf base spells across the board. Weaker characters pushes you into group content, the best of which for this is dungeons which give you stronger items to be less weak, but now if you don’t get the drop first try or lose it to another person who needs it then you’re GRAVELY punished for trying to get it again. The only meaningful dungeon pieces now are the ones from quests that can actually be relied on since re-running a dungeon now is super grief.
In a bubble these changes are ok but together they are a match made in hell.
As it sits currently, mobs in dungeons give 75% less xp than they did in classic. This is offset on the first run from the dungeon quests.
Personally I think the nerfs were a bit heavy handed. I just wanna level in a group with the boys on the weekends and feel like I’m making progress not at a snails pace. In 1-30, the quests from dungeons are a huge chunk of your level so it wasn’t too bad, but I imagine that will significantly drop off at higher levels causing dungeons to feel even worse. Only time will tell.
The idea of spamming dungeons being the "most boring painful experience" isn't even remotely true. Many players do find enjoyment in repetitive group gameplay. People literally roll healers because they enjoy healing. Where else are they even supposed to carry out the majority of their gameplay if not in dungeons?
“the most boring painful experience” for me is fighting streamers and their mega guilds on the mega servers for tags because the devs don’t want me to run dungeons with my friends
This is such a bad argument. Blizzard decides what they want their players to engage with. By that logic make mounts available from lvl1 and if you don't want that just don't do it till lvl 40.
That's not how it works. You put limits on players and force them through certain paths because you want to create a certain gaming experience.
If you don't like it, you don't have to play it.
Wow is not a sandbox. It's not meant to be player however you wish.
Because it directly affects everyone else in multiple ways. How is this so hard to understand? Wanna form a quick group for group quests?
Tough shit.
Everyone at that level range spammed tf out of dungeon X yesterday which made them out level your zone in 1/4 the time and are now spamming another dungeon on the opposite continent. Why go back to that zone to group up with you/quest there when they can camp outside of the entrance spamming LFG Y DUNGEON SPAM. You’re permanently behind the curve for the majority now.
You should’ve spammed dungeons. You regret not doing it. Guess what you do with your first alt when the curve majority rolls alts for content drought?
It doesnt effect others in this manner. With the server pop and layers, you will never notice if people are in dungeons or not. Wasn't true on TBC anni release when dungeon spam WAS the most efficient way due to rep grinds. You were still competing with 10 people for every quest mob open world.
Dungeon spamming isnt gonna leave anyone in the dust either. You also dont have to play at other's pace.
I'm all for people playing how they want to play, assuming it follows TOS, but players don't own wow. We play blizzard's game and purchase a license to play it, we don't own or have a right to anything. "Their game" referring to anyone other than blizzard is stupid logic
Because humans break things when they have to much freedom. Your ask is a human problem. People inevitably destroy the game via...gkdp, gold buying, ASSMAN cucks etc. Humans alays need some regulation. Sadly
And if people want to use a dungeon finder to get groups faster, it should be their decision and it should be possible
and if people want to teleport to dungeons once they find a group, that should be fine. It's their decision to do it, you don't have to if you don't want to.
And if people want to play Pandaran they should be able to, that should be their decision. You don't have to if you dont' want to.
To add to this and maybe help people understand why this is such a bad change, the exp was the only guaranteed reward for doing dungeons. Running subsequent dungeons now you might come out pretty much empty handed.
And on top of this, they’ve gone ahead and made a bunch of new dungeons. Why make them when they don’t want us in them more than once or twice? I’m no dungeon spammer, in fact I’ve always hated spamming dungeons, but it feels bad going into a dungeon a second time. Especially if you don’t get loot
Or even in old dungeons like WC they've updated items like the Fang set to provide more interesting and powerful bonuses. The odds of exiting WC with the full set (or even partial) after a quest run are vanishingly low. If I'm leveling a druid and want the full set I'll just get 60s to run me through for quick loot runs. Very social.
The designers of various aspects of this game are not even on the same continent, let alone the same page.
The part that will feel really bad is having several friends leveling at the same time. It will be impossible to stay synced on quests but previously you could run a dungeon for moderate xp. Now you can choose to put leveling on hold or stay solo questing. Considering one of their pillars is promoting social interaction, I don't see how this achieves that.
But....but.... You know....ummmm..... I dont Like Dungeon grinding, so That's why I don't want to let you have fun leveling up in a reasonable amount of time!!!!!
If you haven't figured out yet that they aren't making the game for people like you who want to grind dungeons I don't know what to say. Go level in era or retail.
It basically boils down to people having no self-control. They hate farming dungeons but if it's the highest exp/hr they simply must do it because nothing but the most efficient will do, even if they hate it.
Probably ways to get faster xp/hr, but once you learn the pulls, which doesn’t take very many runs, then for the amount of effort it takes it becomes the best choice. Plus there’s no changing variables in whether or not a place will be too crowded to quest efficiently, etc.
This is why I think they should've just nerfed dungeon mob xp by 25%.
Apparently it's not to target boosting, and they have other ways to discourage that (that's what I've been told, I don't know what those are). But if boosting is handled, then just give dungeon xp a little tap down so it's not theoretically better for the sweaty people that might lack self control or something, and want to cleave, and leave the experience (pun intended) largely alone for the vast majority of normal people, and the healer/tank folks.
If a mob is grey to anyone in the party, the party gets 0 xp for the mob. That's the anti boosting measures that were in at anniversary and are already in forever. It's also never been better xp than questing, with the exception of at launch where you have to fight for tags/zones are flooded, then it MIGHT be closer to even.
It was from 58-70 in SP then SL because the mobs would be green to the booster, but it's harder to balance around normal groups while not changing how things work. In Forever, all they would have to do is put a mob in each pack to silence, or really however they saw fit to break the boosting aspect of that dungeon and not harming the normal group exp. Instead, we get gutted mob xp.
Im good with it being lower compared than questing, just not 25% of what it used to be. Sometimes I just wanna play as a healer or a tank and level up with my role in a dungeon even if its not super efficient.
Questing was more efficient, speed runners were questing not dungeoning. People though dungeoning was the fastest because of boosting via dungeons, but dungeons are used for boosting because afk
When dungeons gave full xp I still quested to explore the world. Then I made tank and healer characters and leveled in dungeons because I'd already explored the world and I wanted to experience tank/heal playstyle.
Removing dungeons as a feasible way to level just hurts replayability and narrows the scope of experiences available during leveling.
People are also dumb because it has never and never will be the best xp per hour unless you play with a consistent group of 5. If you have to sit in queue and find people and get out there and the tank rage quits, etc. you will never get good xp
Don't bother. They either don't understand why anyone would play a different way than they do because of low EQ/tism, or they're intentionally misunderstanding because they enjoy other people being upset.
OP is just intentionally misunderstanding. It's like, imagine if they nerfed all normal mob xp by 75% and were trying to encourage dungeon running so left elites alone. He'd be the guy going "But don't you guys like questing and grinding in the open world?! I thought you guys liked it and are mad?! What's the problem?" Basically just a facetious asshole.
It's not just about powerlevelling, remember they said they wanted people out in the world. Dungeon grinding is the opposite of that, it's just afk in town till you find a group and run the instance. And i for one don't mind, even though i love healing in dungeons.
I also think the consistent instance grinding is what made retail what it is today, super antisocial (not that classic players cant be antisocial either). I want more group content out in the world, give me reasons to team up with players i come across. That's what makes mmo's so special to me.
i disagree, it was the LFG tool teleporting people to the instances from in the major city that ruined it for retail. In classic, even the dungeon grinders have to get out in the world and go to the dungeon.
I can't say i agree, gw2 has an lfg tool that people use and you just teleport close to them. It doesn't stop them from being social, why ? I think it's because all the content you'll be doing in that game is out in the world, and a lot less of it is in instances. You can be questing and randomly run into these groups in the world, decide to tag along and that's totally ok no skill required. You get the sense that the world is populated and there's always something happening, you also get a reason to group up without all the friction. You're not forced to show up with optimal talents or gear even, just show up.
Wow could really learn a lesson or 2 from gw2, they keep copying their more gimmicky things and not the core ideas that make that game really shine.
It’s not a hard concept. There’s just a segment of the player base that is more invested in punishing other players because they’ve built up this arbitrary ‘correct way to play the game’ and they like rage baiting people about it. This is directly linked with how misanthropic the player base is. Everything is downvoted here. Everything is narrowed into extremes. Theres zero nuance. WoW just has an overall miserable player base. We all know it. It’s pretty obvious being in the sub
Nobody’s struggling with the concept. Of course lowering XP means fewer people will spam dungeons. That’s the point.
The BS argument is jumping from “fewer people will want to do this” to “they’ve ruined dungeons.” The loot, gold, materials, fun with friends, and private supply of resettable mobs are still there.
You’re happy to count XP as a reason people choose dungeons, but suddenly encouraging people to choose the open world is unacceptable?
Argue that the reduction is too big. Fair enough. But “this discourages dungeon spam” isn’t proof it’s a bad change. It’s the change you disagree with.
You are contradicting yourself in your own response here. I mean come on man, how are you going to say "Argue that the reduction is too big, fair enough". That's literally what we are arguing. The reduction is too big so people aren't going to want to run for XP which hurts not only people who want to dungeon grind for xp, but also people who are running to get loot, want to run for fun, or are even just doing their first quest runs but are behind the curve. I think you might actually be struggling with the concept.
Hahaha you are on here trying to defend blozzard and you didn't know boosting was already a solved issue?
It's literally been years since boosting was a problem lmao. How can you be this uninformed whole talking so confidently.
It's actually just pathetic the showing you people try to do.
You know the best part? Blizzard actually buffed boosting with the dungeon XP changes lmao. You guys are so wrapped up in trolling you just can't even get your facts right.
They make up a lot of excuses to not outright say: “I just want to spam dungeons and blitz my way to 60”
Which is fine, you do you, but don’t pretend it’s for another reason, or like you’re being “punished for being social” (in another thread I saw that one)
You can do quests as a group, you can still do dungeons, you can still do them for gear/loot, you can still have fun with your friends
They give a bunch of “gear, gold, fun, socializing” excuses and when you mention you still can do them they go “but why if not enough xp?”
Then why mention them? You don’t care about them, you care about just the xp, so miss me with that “you’re punishing me for socializing” lame ass argument because you don’t care about that at all, just grasping at straws lol
The original devs put exclusive loot in dungeons. Were they railroading questers, or do different activities get different rewards only when it suits you?
Give me one exclusive alliance side quest item in vanilla that didn't involve a dungeon before level 50, and I'll give you 100 iconic pieces from both dungeon loot and dungeon quest rewards.
Why should grinding dungeons give the best loot and the same/better xp than questing? You can still grind dungeons for XP and the quest more than make up for it when you move on to the next dungeon.
That’s the problem dungeon exp is now about 75% worse than questing and even before it was never equal, maybe 25% worse.
Say what you want, but WoW is a progression game, the fun of dungeons was not only getting loot and completing cool shit, it was also the reward of leveling progression. If you take that out, it’s just not exciting to do, especially during leveling when gear becomes obsolete 4-5 levels in, whereas at least when you’re 60, gear and raiding IS the progression.
Your statistics just simply are not true and anyone who remembers 2019 can tell you what a cesspool dungeoning was if you weren't a tank, healer, or mage.
WoW players are notorious for efficiency-ing the fun out of the game and every Chud and Larry with even the smallest awareness of streamer culture thought that they, too, as a grey-green parsing Andy had to always bring 3 mages to a SM Armory run lest their exp/hr be diminished by taking lesser DPS classes like hunter, warlock, or rogue. (Yes, they would ironically spend an extra 20 minutes trying to find a 3rd mage, and no, they wouldn't be clearing in 12 minutes to meet the 5 instance/hr lockout).
That’s the problem dungeon exp is now about 75% worse than questing
What's wrong with this? If I can stay in the same spot grinding experience, it should give less than me putting effort into going out, questing, searching, etc.
Putting effort into your play time should be rewarded, not staying in the same spot and mindlessly grinding.
Again, I’ve never experienced that, building a dungeon group takes time, you have to travel to location, sometimes you wipe. It’s never been sitting and mindlessly grinding. I would probably characterize questing as more closer to mindlessly grinding, and that’s the problem, what used to be a 25% nerf compared to questing is now a 75% nerf, i dont think anyone here would be complaining as hard if it was 50-75% to questing.
I would probably characterize questing as more closer to mindlessly grinding
You're saying running the same dungeon with the same mobs on the same path with the same mechanics isn't mindlessly grinding? And that exploring different areas with different mobs doing different things is more mindlessly grinding?
Now you can do that except alone, in the world just outside the dungeon with no penalty and hyper spawns. All this did was shift people from grouping to them doing it outside of dungeons alone.
Do what? Questing? You people are saying we we're questing alone before and now we're questing alone after the changes too? Sorry I'm too illiterate to understand your point.
No, I mean grinding monsters literally in one place and not moving for at least a level. Grinding monsters has always been fairly competitive to questing and with hyperspawns on and dungeons weaker, you are just going to have people sit where a group spawns and kill them on repeat.
In my experience, a dungeon run with its quests, and the benefit I get from boss/quest loot in having an easier time killing/surviving mobs while questing for the next few levels, has been very worthwhile regardless of mob XP levels in the dungeon.
It’s made sense to run RFC, WC, ROL, SFK, etc. as part of the leveling experience and keep it moving with largely the same approach I took 20 years ago, which also didn’t include the monotony of rerunning dungeons for the sake of hyper-efficiency in XP gains.
there's only dungeon quests and leadup quests that give you all the xp you would ever need, can't believe that I can't just farm stockades all day to get from 23-30, what a bummer. Now I have to go and like play the open world part of the mmo to level up as well?!
Not saying it doesn’t happen, but I don’t know anyone that spam ran stockades from 23-30 straight, might happen to aoe farmers in the past, but even now they nerfed aoe so this is not a thing anymore.
I’m a regular player and I assume for most, some days they quested other days they ran dungeons, to spice things up and enjoy different aspects of the game, while also feeling like they were still progressing in a progression game, again my perspective, but just not the same anymore when you take one of the core elements of dungeons out of the game.
Maybe stockades isnt the best example of this, but if you spam a dungeon for an entire level bracket om a pvp, you just end up skipping a whole pvp grind in the open world and then come out of it with bis gear, thats bad for a pvp server.
listen, regardless of personal opinions or what the community may or may not want the facts are this:
The devs want us to play the game 1 specific way
The devs nerf exp to move people into the direction they want.
The dev acknowledging that this is the reason the exp was nerfed.
The part of the community that likes to grind, and feel some progress from grinding, feels upset by this. make no mistake, grinding dungeons is not the same speed as leveling even BEFORE the nerf, it was slower. people just liked being in a group, and i personally found it a nicer way to get introduced to a tank or healing spec, then just trying to swap at max level and get rolled because idk which buttons to press.
It seems more like the devs are attempting an admittedly imperfect change because they don’t want players to play one specific way, which is the hyper-efficient, monotonous, “run the dungeon where mob density, route, and time to completion yield the highest XP per minute” power leveling strat, which keeps players from experiencing everything else the world has to offer from 10-60.
People are inevitably going to fixate on an end goal, largely because of the discourse that forms around the game “truly starting” at level 60, and ignore much of the magic they’re trying to recreate in the world with gamers’ modern min/maxing all to hell.
I don’t know how they can make subsequent runs of a dungeon competitively rewarding with XP gains and that not be leveraged by the bots or human bots as a “get 60 quick” scheme.
If you want to run dungeons for loot and fun, then I have great news: The loot and fun don’t drop off. If you can’t find groups as easily, then it suggests loot and fun don’t matter to much of the player base. If you need strength in numbers from players looking for efficient XP as their primary reward, then the system is working in the very way they’re hoping it won’t.
Personally I'm an open world quester who likes to run dungeons sometimes. It's good to have the option with so many frienda coming back though without the xp being a quarter of what it used to be.
Dungeon cleave groups were always slightly slower than an aoe mage or a hyper efficient solo quester but they were mindless and pretty easy. Blizzard already nerfed those with mage aoe changes. They've also made it so nobody gets xp if the mobs are grey to anyone in the party. This effectively kills boosting how we knew it.
Arguably they have introduced quest boosting now since all the reward is on the quests. Whether that materializes remains to be seen but there's nothing stopping a 60 from your alts through now.
I think they could've buffed quest xp by 20% and reduced mob xp by 20-30%. First run would still be more frontloaded with xp but subsequent runs would be definitively slower than open world questing while still giving xp that didn't feel bad.
We’re discussing this in a way that reduces gameplay to one factor/objective, and that’s XP gain. It’s an RPG with a world and a story, and dungeons are stops along the way to progress the story that’s primarily driven by quests and the non-instanced world.
On a pragmatic level, people are going to play for progression, but WoW Forever is very unsubtly marketed as a story-driven experience that’s not seeking to be the latest “level up quickly and engage in genre-competitive, hardcore and competitive end-game gameplay” MMORPGs.
People wanted Classic+ to take several steps back and try to recapture the magic, but in my opinion, one of the steps that helped us lose that magic was the collective player base milking every drop of efficiency out of the gameplay experience.
If people are quest boosting, they’re still missing the point and are going to keep themselves from experiencing the magic they’re after either way. There’s nothing stopping any of us from treating our character’s progression as an individual journey through an altered but familiar world on our own terms that with stairs rather than elevators to get us to the top.
It was definitely not slower to dungeon spam for leveling. Hence why everyone and their brother was doing it in all Classic releases, and why it became a popular method for boosting.
boosting was a thing because having a max level character blast all content as they walk through it was faster than questing or doing dungeons normally. but questing has always been faster than just grinding dungeons over and over again. people just enjoy dungeons more.
I feel like for many like myself it cut out a way to level with friends. Yes we can and will quest together but the window for questing together and being at the exact same spot is small especially in a 100 or so hours of leveling. I like running dungeons and the xp wasnt the only reason i ran. I will run many dungeons with friends still. I also like my job. I do it because i enjoy it, get paid, and get healthcare for my family. If they took any of those 3 away from my job it would suck to the point of me looking for something else. The worst part is they basically took away the getting paid part with this nerf. People act like them only removing 1 part of dungeons was nbd but taking away a big part of something you need to progress will always feel awful. Dungeons dont need ceo pay but damn right now its a waiter at applebees waiting a set of tables that never tip.
Is leveling not meant to be FUN anymore? Is it all supposed to be based off of what is the "best way" and nerfed accordingly so that it hurts casual players who want to run and enjoy dungeons, that now have less people running them because of nerfs because it was "the best way to level" come on now...
Yes it's meant to be fun but the developers are making a design decision that forces players into the open world and theres a very vocal and annoying minority that won't give them time to cook. It sounds like most of you are just trying to race to 60 anyways so just quest and get it over with
For me it's that I enjoy running dungeons, turning my brain off and getting XP with a group of friends. Questing as a group doesn't work out but dungeon grinding is perfect for groups with friends, we have played like this for 15+ years together and this literally destroys the option of doing it. We aren't racing or even rushing...
A hard pill a lot of WoW players struggle with online is that phrasing effects how people perceive your issue. It’s better to articulate yourself in a way to get your desired result.
If a bunch people stomp their feet and cry ‘Why does Blizzard hate me & not want me to run dungeons’ that is how it’s going to be perceived even if what you’re saying is “I don’t think questing should be prioritized over Dungeon spamming”
The actual hard pill to swallow is that people don’t actually care what you have to say, or what you like or don’t like. They’re going to skim your post just long enough to discern what bucket you belong in, then project the collective sins of the bucket onto you in their reply. It’s just people talking through people.
I agree. They should add a score to repeat dungeons and also a keystone font that infinitely scales the difficulty. That way we can all just only do dungeons all day everyday
I mean also, the gap between classic dungeon xp rates and dungeon monsters giving 30% of the previous xp is ENORMOUS.
They could literally double it and it still wouldn't even approach efficient. I don't see how it has to be dungeons are the best for everything or dungeons give next to no experience. There's surely a middle ground that's better.
Because you dont run dungeons just for the hell of it. How is it such a hard concept that people want to do dungeons with other people, because questing is boring and kinda trash for a group.
Just give people exp. Acting like a 5 man isnt a social activity is disingenuous at best and real dumb at worst.
The only "social" stuff i see is people bitching in zone/trade or fucking politics.
Just because some in-game activity takes time or accomplishes something doesn’t mean it gets rewarded with XP, though.
There are other ways to incentivize/reward stuff, like loot, gold, etc.
Like, if I spend hours fishing or farming herbs, I’m getting professions skills and gold out of it - it’s not a pathway for leveling, and it doesn’t have to be.
If loot/gold isn’t enough to incentivize people to re-run the same dungeons over and over again, then maybe that’s because the devs have designed it that way on purpose - kind of like how you can’t repeat the same quests over and over again to earn XP (presumably because it’s not progressing through new content).
Well yeah I know it’s apples to oranges, of course it isn’t meant to be an actual comparison. That’s why I said there should always be some XP involved from dungeons (it’s the exact amount that is the topic of debate).
My points were just: (1) that there are things worth doing in the game (that aren’t seen as a “waste of time”) that don’t contribute to leveling and (2) most of us can accept the premise that some in-game activities aren’t rewarded with XP (or with very little XP), even when they take hours, because we can understand that the devs want us to progress through the core game content in order to earn our levels, so the argument that people make about “I’m still spending a lot of time and effort in dungeons as I do in quests” doesn’t hold up, imho, since not every hour or every effort represents an equal amount of progression through the game (as designed/intended). I genuinely feel sorry for the people who are truly upset about this, and I have no desire to force people to play the game in a way that they dislike, but I think it’s fair for Blizzard to structure the rewards in a way that makes people have to engage in new content (not just open world, but also doing as many first-run dungeons as possible, as well) for efficient leveling (which still leaves people the option to make a tradeoff to level slowly if they are absolutely set on dungeons because they only like dungeons and hate the open world).
My issue with this argument is that you want to force people into dungeons. That is what you’re asking for because that is what you want incentivized. What am I missing?
Because that's not at all how it works. Dungeon farming was incredibly efficient XP on wrath but most people didn't dungeon farm because the questing was great XP and enjoyable. Hell even in tbc classic where dungeon farming was the most efficient it's ever been in wow history most players didn't do it from 58-70 because the questing experience was good.
By improving the questing experience blizzard functionally solved the problem. By over nerfing dungeon xp they've reversed it. Instead of players feeling forced into dungeon grinding for problem level areas now players feel forced into not running the dungeon a few times as the XP returns are terrible
But I’m tired of lobbies and exclusion and min-maxxing. I think it’s cringe to focus on clear times and to be with people who don’t really want to be in the dungeon together.
All of it is pretty cringe. I’d rather be out in the world or with people who actually are dungeoning because they want to, not because it’s effective.
I think that will bring back some basic courtesy we are sorely lacking.
So, no. I can’t really sympathize with the push for being dragged into dungeons with dps that only care to maximize their numbers.
I don't think you do care about exclusion because now every group that has a new tank that pulls unnecessary trash will break down into a flame fest of toxicity. Skip routes will be mandatory by the player base.
I think you've picked a really weird take to get super defensive about that makes no sense whatsoever
A group of people full clearing a dungeon is way more chill than one skipping half the packs because they give nothing to kill.
If they can get a group at all. As an experienced tank, new motto: 1 run, quests only, guildies only. Id always run a dungeon at least a few times for gear and fun etc while lvling, because I enjoyed it and it didn't stop my progress. Ask in G chat for anyone who wants to run, pickup pugs to fill. Now? psh easy pass. Without the XP incentive, its simply not worth my time to potentially suffer with a group that I don't know. Ill do hyper efficient runs with the homies only, we already have 2x20 m raids setup, 0 reason for me to play with others now. So I won't.
In your counter here I think you’re comparing dungeoning to dungeon skipping and not factoring being out in the world at all.
If your debate is that people will now only skip trash I don’t think that’s true. They need the trash for questing.
The incentive now is to do dungeons because you want to with the people you want to play with.
My whole point the whole time is that there is a population of people who want to incentivize dungeons because that’s how they want to play the game and they want to take others with them.
You can still do dungeons if you want to. But you have to do them because you enjoy them and I think that’s a good thing. Because you have to be someone others want to go to a dungeon with. Which is sorely lacking currently
Your whole point is wrong though. There's a population of people who enjoy dungeons but also enjoy leveling. They don't want to pause leveling to run dungeons. This is effectively the choice they are now being given
Your whole point is people shouldn't be rewarded with XP for running a dungeon multiple times and if they don't like that too bad so sad.
You have no real point for why it's good for the game
I can see why you’d say that. The reality is that I’m giddy becuase it resonates with a play style I enjoy and lets me avoid cringe dungeon interactions. I’m not happy you guys are upset.
I’m open to your views but I’d need new information or a better suggestion. Personally I’d be doing some dungeons for a change of pace or to help nice people out.
I’ll also solo some dungeons or do some in smaller groups. But the 5 man rush mentality is something I won’t miss.
Edit: if anything I’m happy asshats aren’t benefitting from my labor
Would you accept a system where you're pushed to still do tons of quests, like to unlock abilities and ability ranks, trainable weapon types, flight paths, vendors around the world, profession breakpoints and other level capabilities, and somesort of limit of like 'if you haven't done 200 quests you can't raid'? These are just rough ideas, but if the point is make sure everyone is Questing but questing doesn't have any sort of exclusive 'you have to do this eventually' benefit, and you don't want that thing to be xp, it feels like it would have to other wise be general account progress, or some heavy breakpoints where you have to have done lots of quests to even unlock each dungeon.
Im not anti quest, I am all for pushing people to play in the open world. So Id probably invite all these types of systems. I also like to play as tank and healer, so dungeons are where I feel like I get to level up doing the role that I want to play.
I personally am in favor of that to, I think dungeon xp should have somehow been limited, if not by rate but by a maximum xp yield per dungeon (same with repeating quests as we've seen), but I really was hoping that they'd learn more from OSRS and have Quests give you *good shit* for doing them.
But I don't think Blizzard has the balls to do it.
The functional use of XP dungeon runs is gone. Getting anal over the exact wording is just thick. The outcome doesn’t change and everyone knows what they mean
Exactly.
It doesn’t matter and here you are making condescending comments for no reason other than to “um actually” someone’s issue
ETA - okay I guess we’re just editing comments to look smarter now. It doesn’t change the fact that arguing semantics doesn’t change the outcome regardless of the wording
a 75% reduction might as well be a 100% reduction. Nerfing above a certain amount makes it such a large punishment that if your goal was to run for xp it becomes a very large waste of time. I'd be fine if it was reduced to just to be less efficient than questing, but still a valid method. As it currently stands you get punished (xpwise) for running dungeons past the intial first quest run.
Let's pretend you really enjoy working at your current job and they pay you $40/hr. All of the sudden management comes back and says, hey we are cutting salaries to $10/hour.
All of the sudden that job you enjoyed doing starts looking way less attractive. Sure you are still getting paid, but you are going to likely switch jobs because the pay is not nearly enough to support you and there are far better opportunities elsewhere for significantly more pay.
Had management cut the pay to $0/hrs or to $5/hr it would've been irrelevant because both are below the threshold you'd be willing to work for anyway ans you'd be switching jobs regardless. Thats whats meant by a 75% reduction might as well be a 100% reduction. Simple concepts here, nothing tough to think about.
Edit: Blocked me too now, man he must be embarrassed with how silly he looks.
I do think they could raise dungeon exp and lower the dungeon quest exp a bit to make people not actively avoid running them more than once, but… “you get a lot less people running dungeons” is a bit disingenuous. As dps I haven’t had difficulty finding groups in the beta post nerf since most everyone wants to still run a dungeon once for the quests and in my past experience there was never really that many people who’d want to rerun the same dungeon unless they had a dedicated group to spam them with.
How can you say this yet be completely blind to the issues of just spamming dungeons for leveling? What? Go look at retail thats what you get when you just spam dungeons to level.
Maybe thats what you want that isnt what most of the people complaining about it want. They literally just want to run dungeons to level. Now you can be dishonest yourself and say "no that isnt what theyre saying" or move on.
We want to run dungeons multiple times for a number of reasons.
Then the xp nerf shouldn't affect you at all. Unless of course XP is really the only thing you care about and you are trying to make it look like it's not.
We are going to be on a single mega server, finding groups aren't going to be difficult.
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u/dkcraftbbq 7h ago
Yo, why is this such a hard concept for people. We want to run dungeons multiple times for a number of reasons. Loot, fun, and xp. If you remove xp from that equation, you get a lot less people running the dungeons which makes it harder to find groups even if you only wanted to run for loot and fun. It a pretty simple concept and there are tons of other ways to nerf powerleveling that don't ruin a huge part of the experience for those of us who like to dungeon grind.