Yo, why is this such a hard concept for people. We want to run dungeons multiple times for a number of reasons. Loot, fun, and xp. If you remove xp from that equation, you get a lot less people running the dungeons which makes it harder to find groups even if you only wanted to run for loot and fun. It a pretty simple concept and there are tons of other ways to nerf powerleveling that don't ruin a huge part of the experience for those of us who like to dungeon grind.
because given the choice, some players would choose the most boring painful experience if it gives them the fastest route. It's absolutely a dev's job to make sure that doesn't happen. This isn't about giving the player total freedom, that is just bonkers for a video game.
you can't because then the people who actually play the game feel left behind and they feel like they need to do the most optimal things in order to compete with other players. Is just game design...
Although it’s a famously incorrect line, “You think you do but you don’t” does actually apply to lots of gaming features. There are so many things that players will do if given the option, even if they know in retrospect that they preferred not having the option.
For example, I think if, next to each flight path npc, you put a mage who, for the same price, could just teleport you to any of the destinations you could fly to, even most people who love that classic wow’s travel is restrictive would spam the teleporter. I do not think this would be good for the game because travel being costly is a core part of what makes Classic WoW feel so large and immersive. But, if given the option to use such a teleporter, the vast majority of players would.
It really is the responsibility and expertise of those who make games to determine which things will frustrate us in such a way that we will find reward or meaning in overcoming them and which things will frustrate us in such a way that we won’t.
👆 this is exactly how I feel about any game with fast travel, quest indicators on the map, it similar time savers. It takes away from the journey for me, but I can't help wanting to optimize it's just how my brain works, practically my career too, so I really appreciate when these can be turned off entirely or aren't provided in the first place
One of my favorite single player games, DD2, just added a way to fast travel infinitely for free, and needless to say, I’ve sucked the fun and adventure out of one of my favorite games. I need games to save me from myself lol
Dungeons are now boing and painful? blizzard should just remove them if thats how people feel. Why did they even bother adding new ones? Dungeon spamming has been a popular MMO activity since the dawn of MMOs
Its not the fastest way, never was, and if you think 5 mans are boring, just dont do them. Don't cheer for a change that fucks other people just because you dont understand it
I think saving players from themselves is generally a good strategy but you also shouldn’t tip so far in favor of this that you cut out a piece of content entirely. I think dungeons were fine with maybe a 40% nerf but beyond that is kind of crazy. I think a bigger nerf is fine in the world where they didn’t also nerf base spells across the board. Weaker characters pushes you into group content, the best of which for this is dungeons which give you stronger items to be less weak, but now if you don’t get the drop first try or lose it to another person who needs it then you’re GRAVELY punished for trying to get it again. The only meaningful dungeon pieces now are the ones from quests that can actually be relied on since re-running a dungeon now is super grief.
In a bubble these changes are ok but together they are a match made in hell.
As it sits currently, mobs in dungeons give 75% less xp than they did in classic. This is offset on the first run from the dungeon quests.
Personally I think the nerfs were a bit heavy handed. I just wanna level in a group with the boys on the weekends and feel like I’m making progress not at a snails pace. In 1-30, the quests from dungeons are a huge chunk of your level so it wasn’t too bad, but I imagine that will significantly drop off at higher levels causing dungeons to feel even worse. Only time will tell.
The idea of spamming dungeons being the "most boring painful experience" isn't even remotely true. Many players do find enjoyment in repetitive group gameplay. People literally roll healers because they enjoy healing. Where else are they even supposed to carry out the majority of their gameplay if not in dungeons?
“the most boring painful experience” for me is fighting streamers and their mega guilds on the mega servers for tags because the devs don’t want me to run dungeons with my friends
Grinding dungeons has never been the fastest route, look up any leveling guide.. questing has always been the optimal path. Min/maxers are not dungeon grinding to 60.
This is such a bad argument. Blizzard decides what they want their players to engage with. By that logic make mounts available from lvl1 and if you don't want that just don't do it till lvl 40.
That's not how it works. You put limits on players and force them through certain paths because you want to create a certain gaming experience.
If you don't like it, you don't have to play it.
Wow is not a sandbox. It's not meant to be player however you wish.
Because it directly affects everyone else in multiple ways. How is this so hard to understand? Wanna form a quick group for group quests?
Tough shit.
Everyone at that level range spammed tf out of dungeon X yesterday which made them out level your zone in 1/4 the time and are now spamming another dungeon on the opposite continent. Why go back to that zone to group up with you/quest there when they can camp outside of the entrance spamming LFG Y DUNGEON SPAM. You’re permanently behind the curve for the majority now.
You should’ve spammed dungeons. You regret not doing it. Guess what you do with your first alt when the curve majority rolls alts for content drought?
It doesnt effect others in this manner. With the server pop and layers, you will never notice if people are in dungeons or not. Wasn't true on TBC anni release when dungeon spam WAS the most efficient way due to rep grinds. You were still competing with 10 people for every quest mob open world.
Dungeon spamming isnt gonna leave anyone in the dust either. You also dont have to play at other's pace.
I'm all for people playing how they want to play, assuming it follows TOS, but players don't own wow. We play blizzard's game and purchase a license to play it, we don't own or have a right to anything. "Their game" referring to anyone other than blizzard is stupid logic
Because humans break things when they have to much freedom. Your ask is a human problem. People inevitably destroy the game via...gkdp, gold buying, ASSMAN cucks etc. Humans alays need some regulation. Sadly
And if people want to use a dungeon finder to get groups faster, it should be their decision and it should be possible
and if people want to teleport to dungeons once they find a group, that should be fine. It's their decision to do it, you don't have to if you don't want to.
And if people want to play Pandaran they should be able to, that should be their decision. You don't have to if you dont' want to.
I believe thats up to the devs if they want that feature inculded. You first sentence “yea what do people care so much about job other people want to play their game”
Other than the obvious grammatical errors. If you make “their” to be the devs who own the game and make it. You are 100% correct. Why do they care about how other people wana play their game. Its theirs. They can make it playable however they want.
Theres something so offputting about this "dont question the devs" attitude you and others seem to have. Its like a gross pick-me / quasi-bootlicker mentality.
The devs said in the past that no one actually wants classic wow.
The devs in the past were surprised people were upset with a mobile diablo gane.
The devs were not planning to add SD models in forever until they got pushback from early players.
The relationship between devs and players has always been collaborative. This is how every successful product that has ever been developed. Creators listen to the feedback of their consumers and take it into consideration while developing.
As a developer myself; any half competent dev is going to care more about their customers sensibilities over that of their personal subjective taste.
As a dev, you also know that customers often have no clue what it is they actually want. Or wouldn't choose the thing they're asking for if they understood the consequences of that choice elsewhere. I agree 1000% that Blizzard needs to be listening to the community, but it's still entirely up to them to make good decisions. Calling feedback from players "collaborative" is a stretch
Its true that customers dont often know what they want; but theres levels to it. In a situation where the product performed one way, and it was taken away, and the customer reacts negatively; that is a much clearer signal than "features want X" where X is a novel feature/function.
Collaborative may be a stretch in terms; but i think my meaning is clear.
People will almost always have emotional reactions to things being changed or taken away, though. Just think about how strong reactions can be for balance changes. If the thing you hate gets nerfed then it's a great change. If the thing you play gets nerfed then the devs are idiots.
Obviously I'm painting in broad strokes, but sometimes folks just need time to get used to a change before they realize it's not as bad as they thought it would be. It doesn't mean the feedback is worthless; Blizzard should absolutely be paying close attention. I just don't think they should be super reactive to it. I don't think any of us want a game where everything has been reduced to the least offensive, lowest common denominator.
EDIT:
fwiw, I completely agree with you that we shouldn't be quasi-bootlickers. I just don't think we should idolize community sentiment either. The devs' vision and the community sentiment are both important, but I'd bias towards the vision 9 times out of 10.
I didnt say dont queation the devs. I just said they have the right tondecide how their game is intended to be played. You have every right to then play it however you want under their intended rules.
You can do your call to change stuff but devs made up their minds and stated their intent is that dungeons are worth just a bit less exp than equivalent optimization questing. This is now not a bug but a feature and you can either notnplay. Or play within the rules. You can keep calling fir changes. The only reason i responded to someone (not you) with my comment was cause in my mind the first sentence was from the devs point of view and the second contradicted that and it was weird how you just look at the first sentence a slightly different way and it makes a completely valid argument for the point he wasnt trying to make. People started cussing at me and calling me mean names. So im so hurt on the inside i need to find my favorite bathing toster.
They've already tweaked dungeon and dungeon quest XP twice in just the beta. Its clear the devs are open to feedback on tuning this. Saying "play the game the ways the devs intend or dont play" is so dismissive. Its a game in beta and people are offering feedback.
Yea they set it at what they want. Then met at middle ground they’re willing to bend to for the second time. They stated clearly their intent. And if you dont care what they want. Well you can play the game as you wish.
This is how I've decided to feel about it, if the people who actually are making the game have intentions about how they want it to flow then it is what it is. It is their game, not my game and this seems like something they clearly have expressed is intentionally done
As a paying customer you absolutely have the right to give feedback at any time as feedback is very important for any creative endeavor.
The creators also have the right to ignore your feedback if they're aiming for something specific.
I can't speak as a game developer but as a writer/artist getting feedback is important as the fans might see something you as the creator are too close to see. On the other hand sometimes the feedback you get is useless because a lot of people are potatoes with potato brains and potato opinions.
Then. Go. Play. Retail. This is supposed to be classic experience. Why do you mutants go into these games then attempt to change the very core of it. "Just le me play how I want idc about anything else!" Then go play games that allow you to do that.
This is supposed to be classic plus, dungeons giving competetive xp hs been part of classic gameplay since the day one. Maybe the dungeon haters should be the ones to go play retail and leave the classic alone.
Dungeons were a good method of leveling in all classic iterations. Last I checked during the dragonflight, dungeons were not viable way to level in retail. Ergo you should go play retail if you don't want to level by dungeons and should play classic if you want to level by dungeons. This should be the classic plus game, hence we might expect it to include the dungeon leveling system from classic.
I don’t care, personally, I think everyone should do exactly what they want.
But I don’t think Blizzard is wrong for nerfing it, either - playing the game how you want/prefer is great, but it doesn’t mean you’re entitled to level up at the same/comparable rate as people who progress through all of the content when you are repeating the same content.
Not every hour spent in the game should be rewarded in the exact same manner.
If they want people to have to progress through the content (rather than selectively repeating some of it) in order to level up, I think that’s fair of them to do, and that’s already how it works for quests (you can’t get XP and level up for repeating quests).
If I spend hours on end fishing and farming herbs, I get rewarded with professions points and gold, but I don’t level up; that doesn’t mean that people don’t do professions or that professions are unfair, they’re just a part of the game that you do for other reasons but are still important, and dungeons (especially the initial runs) still will be rewarded via quests, XP, etc.
Dungeons should always give loot and gold and some amount of XP, but if Blizzard wants to structure it so that people can only advance in level by advancing through new content, I think it’s fair.
How do you play more dungeons if there will be less people to will the group to run these dungeons?. Don't be a bootlicker, people will complain anyways.
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u/dkcraftbbq 7h ago
Yo, why is this such a hard concept for people. We want to run dungeons multiple times for a number of reasons. Loot, fun, and xp. If you remove xp from that equation, you get a lot less people running the dungeons which makes it harder to find groups even if you only wanted to run for loot and fun. It a pretty simple concept and there are tons of other ways to nerf powerleveling that don't ruin a huge part of the experience for those of us who like to dungeon grind.