Obama: Israel 'took the land' from Palestinians, 'ceded moral ground' in Gaza

[u/Particular_Log_3594]

https://www.jpost.com/international/article-911851

[u/walkallover1991]

I'm sorry but statements like this give me "one day everyone will have been against this" vibes.

As President, Obama opposed Palestine's bid for full UN member status and then later also opposed their bid to non-member observer state status. His administration also worked to block Palestinian efforts to pursue charges against Israel at the ICC.

He continued doing the Democrat song and dance regarding settlement expansion, but expansion continued throughout his Presidency. The U.S. abstained from a UNSC vote on settlement expansion.

You can't be against settlement expansion while simultaneously sending military aid to Israel, protecting Israel on the international arena, and not sanctioning high-ranking Israeli leaders.

[u/Engrish_Major → u/walkallover1991]

Cool. And we should want people to change for the better. The best accountability is changed behavior.

[u/evilgigglefish → u/Engrish_Major]

we should also want people who genuinely believe in what's right, not conveniently changing their beliefs as soon as american public opinion changes.

[u/naynaythewonderhorse → u/evilgigglefish]

You create an impossible situation where no politician is allowed to change under those circumstances. This country is literally never going to heal if we don’t start accepting people who own up to their mistakes.

[u/COMCredit → u/naynaythewonderhorse]

I don't really buy this because politicians (unlike your friends and neighbors who should be given grace when they own up to mistakes) can be replaced by people who do have moral clarity and political courage. The alternative to saying "sorry, we don't forgive you" to a politician that did wrong is a situation wherein morality when holding the levers of powers becomes almost irrelevant because legacy-concerned politicians (as Obama and most others tend to be) can simply apologize when it becomes politically convenient.

The core of our disagreement is really - what should be the cost of doing wrong, even when doing wrong is a popular/default position, as a politician? Personally I don't think it's productive for the answer to be "nothing, as long as they apologize"

[u/naynaythewonderhorse → u/COMCredit]

You are confusing “politician” with “elected official.”

You can’t “replace” Obama. (The subject of the discussion here.) He was President and he can’t be President again. His existence as a former President is never gonna go away.

Yes, you can replace people in power.

[u/COMCredit → u/naynaythewonderhorse]

Fair point.

What, then, is the motivation for accepting his mistakes? How does expressing that we want politicians who have moral clarity and a genuine belief in what's right (and therefore rejecting these sorts of apologies) prevent healing? Why is it an impediment to healing to say "we don't like you because you failed morally and lacked courage"?

Does that not create a situation wherein the consequences for acting immorally as an elected official are basically none, because they can be forgiven and rehabilitated when they are out of power?

[u/naynaythewonderhorse → u/COMCredit]

I’m a little off today because of some family tragedy, but honestly the deeper stuff you are saying isn’t necessarily what I think is important.

People get too stuck up on people doing things for the wrong reasons. But, realistically if the good thing gets done, why does the motivation matter? He’s speaking out, and the only thing we get is “Too little too late.”

So, what exactly do people want to happen? I have no idea. There’s this expectation for Politicians to maybe take a stance, but as soon as they do they are questioned about it.

Honestly, to a certain extent the questioning of the legitimacy of decisions like this feels like a scheme to make sure the fracturing of the people continues.

Because honestly these questions of legitimacy leave absolute NO ROOM for a solution to the issue.

Like, if Obama is full of shit, then…well, I guess he’s full of shit. There’s rarely, if ever, a solution to the issue offered. It’s literally just fractured discussion that feels like it’s manipulating the population into not accepting that people can change.

Someone is defecting from the narrative? Better throw some comments in the top that immediately put into question the legitimacy of the politicians new stance.

Like, there is absolutely no way we can heal as a country without some level of compromise. No, we can’t go back to the old status quo, but we can make sure the new status quo has an off-ramp for Trumpers. They have none right now, and I think for defections to happen, we need to stop questioning it.

[u/COMCredit → u/naynaythewonderhorse]

I'm very sorry to hear that you're going through a difficult time in your family. My thoughts are with you.

But, realistically if the good thing gets done, why does the motivation matter?

That's the whole point though, the good thing didn't get done. The harm was done explicitly, both in terms of individual UN votes and in terms of continued support for Israel. Yes, it's too little too late - I'm sorry but I don't believe in giving credit to the former most powerful person in the world for saying "huh, maybe this is kinda messed up" when, at the time of being the most powerful person on the planet, he actively contributed to how messed up things are now.

So, what exactly do people want to happen?

What we want to happen is active politicians to realize that they have an imperative to do what's right. Of course, Obama, a student in the tradition of James Baldwin and Toni Morrison, knew what was right at the time, but he still didn't do it.

There’s this expectation for Politicians to maybe take a stance, but as soon as they do they are questioned about it.

Well, yes, that's the job. Obama had 8 years as president and a decade after that to influence the party and towards the right side of the issue. It's better that he come around now than never but it's really really hard for me to not see this as too little, too late.

I'm not questioning the legitimacy of his opinion at all. I don't think he's full of shit. I think it's entirely possible his views have legitimately changed on the subject - but I don't care whats in the heart of politicians, I care when and now they exert their power and to what end. And Obama did not exert his power (and still isn't, really) well at all, in my opinion.

We can make sure the new status quo has an off-ramp for Trumpers. They have none right now, and I think for defections to happen, we need to stop questioning it.

I'm not sure what you mean. For regular people, sure there's an off ramp. Welcome to the club, glad you're out of the cult. For politicians and pundits? No, absolutely not - the absolutely most charitable and forgiving take is that you have horrible, horrible judgement and should never ever be trusted with any amount of power again. The best case scenario is that every Republican that supported Trump is humiliated professionally and forced to retreat completely from professional life - just like Confederates and segregationists should've been.