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I was talking to a girl at a bar one night and I did eventually ask for her number to which she said “why would i give you that? Do you think we’re talking?” So i was like “oh…sorry” and walled away back to my friends lol.
When we were leaving, she came up to me and was like “Is there a reason you stopped talking to me?” And I just said it seemed like she wasn’t interested like I thought. And she just goes “So you stopped trying??”
Like…yeah? If you wanted to give me your number, then just do it😭the fuck
This is true. We were told “No, means No”. A respectful sensible man takes that info and acts on it. The risk of being put on blast if one of her friends is recording the conversation, or being accused of something you didn’t do is just too great.
I remember one time my ex (we were dating at the time) told me I didn’t have any “game.” Like first of all we are already dating but also, this isn’t a game to me. The irony is at the time there were plenty of other women in my extended friend group who were interested in me but I was already seeing someone I’d been into for years.
Exactly. Its about putting you in a position where she always wins. Either you feed her ego, or she decides she doesn't want you and you're a creep. The correct move is to just not play stupid games.
I disagree, that sounds like a rude way of saying no, realistically. If she really did mean that and you kept trying, one angel shot later and she's gone and you're banned from the bar. As the other guy said, really too much to risk, especially over bs childish games like that.
Not to mention you dodged a bullet anyway. Imagine dealing with that the whole time you were dating.
Is there? Everyone I know has far more misses than hits in dating. Maybe it's just match group trying to make everyone miserable and minimize good matches, but people who play stupid games or have other communication issues seems to be the default.
Because it only takes one hit to win. You don’t have to date after that. Everyone will always have more misses than wins unless they find the right person the very first time.
Like everyone else mentioned, you are doing a common error humans do when evaluating the statistics of our experience. People who are great in relationships tend to, you know, be in a relationship.
If I have to chase you, it means you're running away. I'm not chasing somebody that runs from me.
"But my grandpa persisted for months to get my grandma!"
Yeah, that's called harassment. He harassed her until she gave in. Couple that with the fact that your grandmother couldn't even open her own bank account, she likely only married dear grandfather out of survival.
Ladies, if you want shit men, this works. The men that don't take no for an amswer. They will harass you until you either give up or get a restraining order.
Use your big girl words and just say things to men. Playing hard to get makes you impossible to want. Life isn't a romantic comedy.
Did you know RPG is a backronym? the original acronym is Ruchnoy Protivotankoviy Granatomyot It translates to
"hand-held anti-tank grenade launcher in Russian
He should have registered an LLC and asked her to fill out a contact form that one of his temps would review and escalate if appropriate. This would give her ample time to (not) read the Privacy Policy and Terms of Service.
Sad part is, some people genuinely think that the same guys who beg and push boundaries have no correlation with the guys who don't take no for an answer.
edit: I should add some context, it's entirely possible that the guy is a bit needy when it comes to relationships but has a hard boundary on consent. But realistically, are you going to take your chances with that and say 'there were no signs' later?
There’s a concept in feminism called the pyramid of sexual violence, which argues that each stage leads to the next. Based on that theory, feminists assume that accepting a guy to push boundaries will eventually lead to allowing guys to rape and beat.
I mean, I blame (in part) 95% of the rom com writers that think that stalking and pushing and being a creep in general suddenly becomes super hot if you do it in a crazy and potentially dangerous manner.
Yeah after a chorus of voices screaming"Don't approach her at the bar/cafe/beach park, she's just there to have fun with friends/get coffee/swim/jjog"to high heavens.
They wanna have their cake and eat it too. It's either play hard to get and instill the idea into men that no doesn't actually mean no, or drop the act entirely and have clear boundaries. You can't have both.
Not sure if it'd be offensive to say this, but sometimes women just kinda fantasize(?) about the ones they find attractive would just persist regardless of how they "resist", and the ones they don't find attractive would simply not try and bother in the first place, regardless of whether those people are trying to flirt or not.
Obviously it's not everyone and not every time. And I'm not saying there's anything inherently wrong either. It's probably the subtle (biological) differences, like, if I were a woman, I might naturally enjoy that process maybe?
It shouldn't be offensive to anyone because sexual health research has repeatedly backed up the idea that fantasies of being pursued / dominated by a man are common in women. Not literally everyone, but it's common
And men’s fantasy is Dominating women. It’s natural. But Of course there’s men who want to be dominated by women and women who want to dominate men. These desires are normal and healthy and it can all be done in a safe fun way.
Which is honestly why MF dating is so shit right now.
Women deal with shitty men, and there are a lot of them.
Women want to vent about their experiences, understandably. Women vent with little nuance, again understandably.
Main rhetoric directed at men for the past 10-15 years has been largely "leave us the fuck alone" or "don't even talk to me at the gym/bar or ask me out after being friends".
The problem is the guys who listened weren't the problem and the guys who were, weren't about to start listening to women.
Throw in dating apps, which have incentive to not actually match people But were useful for guys as they where a place where you felt that she would be receptive to your advances or interest.
Decent guys and up internalizing these messages, and pull back heavily from positive and neutral social interactions for fear of being a negative one. Meanwhile shitty guys keep on approaching women IRL, and not taking no for an answer.
Decent guys then wonder why listening to women hasn't resulted in them being successful with love. They then go and ask women what should they do? The usual response as being variations on "God just wash your ass and treat her like a person, ours literally in hell for you guys!"... Which does nothing helpful
Honestly I talked through this with with my therapist in the last bout of therapy I went through, and I'm just trying to share what insights I have. I've talked and listened to countless men and women about their experiences, and frankly, it's on the halfway decent guys to uninternalize these messages because the other options for fixing this being:
Shitty guys grow conscience
Women start proactively dating men en masse
Dating apps start actually trying to match people
Are not going to happen. Or at least by no means a common occurrence and the Crux of it, the core issue that I know a lot of guys struggle with is the following: "I care about women, I hear their problems, I try to help, I listen to em... Are you really telling me that I gotta 'ignore what women have blatantly and explicitly told me?'"
.
To be completely candid? Yes I am. If you're beating yourself up over, not trying to be a bother. Not trying to be anything like that guy who you likely are disgusted by and hate how he makes women feel?.... Then those messages probably were not meant for you. It's good to be mindful of what they meant but you cannot blindly follow what they said. Like if you could ask out a woman and take the rejection well? You're probably not the guy they were complaining about and need to allow yourself some grace and wiggle room.
.
Edit: I've talked on this a number of times, because I was going through all of this a couple years ago. I haven't totally fixed it, but I'm in a relationship now and if all goes well I'll never have to work on this again but I atleast want to provide actional advice on how to improve the shitshow that is MF dating. We've been talking past each other, and demanding changes in gender norms for guys without any consideration for replacements or alternatives, while still also expecting others to continue on like normal... It's only natural that a lot of men have been feeling a sort of friction about this, and I want to help smooth it over and provide a path out. If anyone's got other insights or suggestions, please I'm all ears.
There’s also the ability for one shitty guy to be shitty to a lot of different women, creating the illusion that a larger percentage of men are shitty than reality.
Also there's research that shows about 80% of women only accept contact with about 20% of men on dating apps. They're all going after a small triage of the men on there, and likely all experiencing a lot of the same arseholes.
This is a huge part of it IMO. There’s a statistic cited (don’t know how accurate it really is) that 10% of heterosexual men are having 90% of the heterosexual sex.
IME, most of the guys I know who are having a lot of sex with a lot of different women are kinda scumbags. They cheat on their girlfriends all the time, hit and quit, basically just use women for sex, some are unemployed and mooch off their girlfriends, and are lazy and just play video games all day and don’t do any chores, and live like slobs treating their girlfriend like a “bangmaid” or their mom.
The guys I know who aren’t like that are in relationships, or if they’re single they don’t have a lot of prospects because they’re not that attractive, maybe they’re shy and socially awkward or they try too hard, coming on too strong and scaring women they’re interested in away with gestures that they think are romantic but creep women out.
(A recent example, one of my friends had been texting with a girl he’d been on a date with one night, and she mentioned when she had to work the next morning. Well, he thought it would be nice to grab her usual coffee order and left it outside her door with a thoughtful note on his way to work the next morning which was a few minutes before she would be leaving. Boom, she blocked him instantly.
And he’s not unattractive. Not incredibly handsome and he’s balding prematurely, but has a tall and lean swimmer’s physique. He’s a really sweet and friendly guy, has a good job and works hard. An idealistically romantic one-woman man. His biggest flaw besides getting too competitive playing board and card games and getting really pissed off when he’s losing is that he’s bad with money.)
This is anecdotal but the shittiest person I know personally is one of the guys in that statistic.
He has a girlfriend of 15 years who he has 2 kids with. And he has cheated on her with probably a hundred or more women.
Any decent looking woman in his life he pursues relentlessly until they give in and sleep with him, and then he drops them almost instantly.
He has his own company and he even hires attractive women with the goal of sleeping with them.
He is successful, fit, fun and has that extrovert adhd personality.
At this point I'm sure any girl who did a smidgen of research online would know how he treats women but he still has a new girl around every month.
Not sure where I'm going with this but just felt like sharing.
Edit, clarified the hiring sentence a bit.
They’re doing a bad job and paying the price for it. I met a woman last Friday, 46, said she wanted FWB in her bio…. Dawg, she told me she hopes of having kids in the future. I dropped her off and wished her luck.
Being a woman, it's not super helpful when other women play these games. We're trying to be reasonable and transparent about it, and then the reasonable and transparent guys have to interpret that as a potential game because a group of childish people are still playing these childish games. So glad the system is righting itself a bit and making it more observable, easier to dismiss, more difficult to attempt, and with a much reduced likelihood for a payoff. This is all good news for everybody.
Edit: sorry, not good news for the unreasonable and deceptive people. Good news for the reasonable ones
Years ago I was hooking up with this chick id known for awhile but this was our first time fucking
and she goes 'no stop' so I stopped and was like are u ok, cos we were both drunk and shes like 'yeah keep going' so I get back to it and she starts going 'no stop stop' again and pushing me off so im like wtf ok im stopping and she starts whispering 'no dont actually stop keep going' im like wtf you keep telling me to stop tho and then shes like 'yeh but dont actually stop...you know...just keeping going and ignore me' so I say but then its like... and im about to say 'its like im raping you' and just before i say it she gives me this look like im a fucking moron and then.... then I realised what she was asking for.
Whole time I was waiting for the police to kick in the door lol
I had a similar experience. She didn't like that she was hooking up so early in dating, didn't want to feel responsible for that. So we're just about to get into it, she says stop, so I stop and ask her, do you want me to keep going? She says no. So I say okay. A pause, then she says well, yes. So I say but you said no. She says no but also yes.
Fuck the way that movie set up expectations that made me have to bust my ass for my high school through college girlfriend the way I did. I was so dumb.
Not anymore fore sure . Ask more than once and could faced with harassment. I don’t say shit to women anymore unless they ask me a question about something.
Wait are there actually people like this?? Why tf you want the man to cross a clearly laid out boundary? Like the men that would are the bad kinda men.
There's a decent sized group of women who think men actually like this BS, and a semi-overlapping group of women who think this is just how they want things to work.
it doesn't involve any guessing at all. They say they don't consent, I believe them.
If they were lying about that then they're idiots and they can be the ones to explain to other women why they're trying to convince men not to respect a "no"
Had a date on a cold day. The guy said we can go back to his place, but he usually doesn’t hook up the first date. I said ok I am going to head home. Then he followed me to my car trying to convince me not to leave.
Women that want to waste your time and be manipulative get ditched.
I’m all for working to get to a certain level of intimacy but I’m not going to work for you to actually like me and care about me. I want someone who that comes to naturally and genuinely.
As a man one lesson I have learned the hard way is that when a women says she is no longer interested in communicating, it is over. If you beg, plead or try to reconcile, you get labeled as a simp or a weak man.
I went on 2 dates with a girl, and they went well I thought!
Then I called her for a third. She didn't answer, I left a message. I called again, her sister (her roommate) answerd, called for her, came back, told me she was busy and she'd call me back. (Yes, I'm old, this was before cell phones.
I called again a few days later, left another message.
So... two messages, and a third time I heard her in the background saying "tell him I'm busy."
She never called back, and I assumed she wasn't interested, and moved on.
Literally a year later she ends up working with a mutual friend, and asks why I stopped calling her. I passed back through that friend that I tried several times and assumed she wasn't interested.
She says "oh, he was supposed to try harder, I was playing hard to get, I was really upset he didn't keep trying, I really liked him."
I was once seeing a girl that said she didn’t want to be with me and that we should break up. I said ok no problem I accept it. Then she got upset and said I didn’t fight for the relationship? Women man.
Man this reminds me of this baptist girl i briefly dated. We fucked a couple times then she got onto me about only wanting sex so I told her cool, we wont have sex for a while so she feels more comfortable. Next time fooling around I set a boundary and said no, she took that as a challenge and put her bare tits in my face, so of course I gave in. After sex she was pissed at me again for fucking. Extremely frustrating.
Ugh back in high school this girl I know did that shit about once a month with her BF, she was so horrifically insecure she's break up with him every few weeks so he'd fight to get her back, "Its the only way it makes me feel like he really loves me!" - and I'm like wow, what a sucker.
Because society thought us that a man that persists in a woman when she says no should them respect her boundaries and stop.
And I agree with this, if anyone tells you to stop and go away then go away.
But if the woman is playing hard to get that’s on her for trying to play distant instead of just interacting with him
Sopranos is an old show. AJ asks a girl for a number. Girl doesn't give the last digit, to make him work for it. I would have just moved on to the next girl.
All my relationships have been from my exes asking me out first, which I prefer immensely because the kind of person who plays these games is not one I’d like to date. It’s a great filter for certain qualities.
I met someone at a work event and we chatted for most of the night, she was honestly a lot of fun. I asked her for her number if she wants to stay in touch. She said she never checks her WhatsApp so I took it as a polite no.
She's a new hire in a different department so I've started seeing her around occasionally and she's always stopping to chat. Last week she complimented my clothing, said it looks stylish and good on me or something. Yesterday I saw her, it was payday and she said something like it's the perfect day for drinks.
I thought of asking but tbh two things. It was more than a month ago now we hit it off and the moment has just passed for me. She already "rejected" me in some capacity once, asking her twice is starting to look and feel pushy from me. The benefit of guessing right and she wants to go out (some drinks, potential for a friendship or romance) honestly doesn't outweigh the risk (looking like a creep and reputation of being a creep).
I don't really understand why the door is always supposed to remain open. Simultaneously accept the answer and move on with your life - which I've done, I didn't really think of it til I last bumped into her. I'm not that interested.
But also make sure you're still available and interested because despite saying no she's unironically maybe interested and hoping I'll wait for her to change her mind.
I swear, half the English language posts across reddit recently have completely butchered grammar to the point where you basically have to guess from context what they're trying to say
The honest truth is that if a good looking woman walks up to me and asks for my number, I would immediately think it's some kind of scam or Amway type MLM nonsense. Nobody just cold opens with 'can I have your number'. You start with saying 'I love your dog. We had a Yorkie too' or 'Iowa! You guys better win! I'm rooting for you guys'. Break the ice and then make the connection. And then ask for contact info.
Women have spent the better part of the last 15 years literally yelling at men “No means no. Stop insisting!” then are genuinely surprised when men oblige.
I had a female friend when I was younger that I ended up having feelings for, she said she only viewed me as a friend, I said ok no problem. Stayed friends and I got a girlfriend 3 months later, she then started heavy flirting even sending me nudes so I cut her off.
About a year ago 8 years into my new marriage 15 years since we last talked, she texted saying it’s a shame we didn’t work out, she has a husband and a kid, no it’s not a shame we didn’t work out.
Desperate men will keep trying, men with self respect will accept the rejection.
Oh yeah, they don’t admit this. The era we are is more “if he has money, I’ll sleep with him but I’m not a prostitute” but the online version is “spoil me.”
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