r/sindarin • • Aug 07 '24

[FAQ] – (Not) Using AI for Automatic Translation

Thumbnail
3 Upvotes

r/sindarin • • Oct 04 '24

Sindarin in PE23

15 Upvotes

I compiled a list of all the new and otherwise interesting Sindarin vocab found in PE 23.

  • bâd - road | found as "e-bâd, the road". Hitherto only known as N. "beaten track, pathway". P. 136.
  • fend - door | Hitherto only as fen, fenn. P. 136.
  • hûl - secret | also as "e-chûl, the secret". Cf. 'holen'. P. 136.
  • rhawf, rhaw - wild beast | also as "e-thraw, [the wild beast]. P. 136. Plural i-thraw > i-rhaw p. 139.
  • rhovan - large beast, especially the great red deer of the vale of Anduin | p. 136.
  • Rhovennian - "more correct" Sindarin form of Gondorian Rhovannion[sic] | p. 136.
  • lhinc - earthworm | also as "e-thlinc, [the earthworm]". p. 136.
  • balt - force | Cf. EN "might". p. 136.
  • gwend, gwenneth - maiden | also as "e-wend, e-wenneth, the maiden". p. 136. Plural in-wind, rarely found, rather analogous i-ngwind (= i-ñwind) p. 139.
  • harf - left-hand | also as "e-charf, the left-hand". p. 136. Probably from *khjarmă as opposed to *khjarmā > 'harvo'.
  • whest - breeze | also as *e-whest, the breeze". p. 136. Pl. i-chwist p. 139. Cf. Q. 'hwesta', N. 'chwest'.
  • cathr - carpenter | From "*kantrō, shaper". North S. cathor. P. 137.
  • tachl - large pin or brooch | From "*tanklă, a thing used for fixing". North S. tachol. p. 137.
  • parth - small enclosed field, lawn | p. 139.
  • bâr, pl. i-mair (sometimes i-mbair in spelling to distinguish b-words from m-words) - dwelling | p. 139.
  • dôr, pl. i-nuir (sometimes i-nduir in spelling to distinguish d-words from n-words)- land | p. 139.
  • gôn, pl. [i-]nguin (= *ñuin, but sometimes spelt i-ñguin even though no clarification was necessary since no original ñ-words existed) - stone | p. 139.
  • thoron, pl. i-theryn - eagle | pl. previously unattested. p. 139
  • heleg - ice | Hitherto only in N. Plural i-chelig is given as "ice-pinnacle". p. 139.
  • herw, pl. i-chery - wine | Apparently pl. from "CE *syeru, juice of fruits", sg. from "enlarged form herwā" [< syerwā, I assume]. p. 139.
  • mûl, pl. i-muil - slave | Hitherto sg. only attested in N. p. 139.
  • norn, pl. i-nyrn - dwarf | Sg. explicitely attested for the first time. p. 139.
  • ioron, pl. in-ioryn - old man | Apparently the counterpart of 'ioreth'. p. 139.
  • gwanon - one of a pair of twins | Plural/dual given as "*gwanur, twin-birth", explicitely with ŭ < ū. p. 140.
  • uimallhen - ever-golden | From 'oio-maltinā. Pronounced with lh (< lþ), but spelt with doubled lh for reasons of stress, exactly like 'remen' but 'galað-remmin' (see below). p. 140.
  • remen - netted, entwined | With short m explicitely. p. 140.
  • gwaelod - "wind-feather", a great ship for sailing on the Great Sea | From 'wayalautō'. p. 142. Hence apparently *laud/lod = "feather".
  • Gildír - Starwatcher | S. version of T. 'Gilitīro', Celeborn's father. Given in "Celeborn Gildírion, son of Gildír".

Certainly the most surprising thing to me (as you might already have guessed) are the articles. In this very late source (ca. 1969) Tolkien gives the singular as e before consonants, en before vowels, and in the plural i resp. in. This is of course a significant departure from all hitherto published samples of Sindarin, which of course had sg. i, plural in (as in earlier Noldorin), and the form en was limited to one form of genitive particle (which in this scenarion is probably dropped altogether in favour of na).

However, surprisingly this new paradigm seems to only really contradict i-Estel in the LotR (which would have to be amended to *en Estel), since all other forms in texts published during Tolkien's lifetime appear to be plural and all other cases of Sindarin articles we have known are from sources that Tolkien might have changed before publication (if he had got the chance to do so).

So we can't know whether Tolkien would indeed have changed i Estel in upcoming editions (had he been alive to oversee them) or whether he would have abandoned the new paradigm once he realised the contradiction, so I won't encourage anyone to adopt this late paradigm into their Neo-Sindarin (unlike abandoning the plural pronominal suffix -(a)m in favour of late -(o)f, a couple of years ago, since the former never appeared in anything published during Tolkien's lifetime), but I certainly find the topic extremely interesting.

So far I have not had a closer look at the mutations, but they appear to hold no big surprises so far, except that maybe Tolkien had decided to keep the nasal of the plural article intact before the mutated word, but that also would contradict material published during his life time.

But the development of sw stood out to me, since it is quite complicated - with Tolkien stating that it first became wh everywhere, then f in the North and chw in the South, which remained so in Doriath but later reverted to wh elsewhere, while still becoming chw through nasal mutation, and that the quality is often in fact uncertain because it wasn't always represented in spelling, using the letter hwesta sindarinwa for both. But in a note that might refer to this Tolkien said that "this business about sw is too complicated (and unnecessary)" and that the North had f and the South wh, which "remained unchanged" (hence the apparent lack of lenition in whest above, to which the note appears to point directly).
This would, however, still render the letter hwesta sindarinwa pointless, because (as Tolkien had pointed out in the LotR appendices) distinction of wh and chw was needed in Sindarin (but maybe only lenition had no effect but nasal mutation did?).

And lastly there are a few notes on North Sindarin, which has always been a special interest of mine:

  • there was no m-lenition (which was well established)
  • medial mp, nt, ñk remained unchanged or probably rather restopped (also well established)
  • rh- became thr- generally initially (so Southern S. rhûn would be Northern S. *thrûn), but lh- remained and both were incapable of mutation.
  • Otherwise mutations are the same as in Southern Sindarin
  • sw- > wh- > North S. f- (so Southern words like whest or hwinn would be *fest and *finn in the North).

r/sindarin • • 3d ago

Translation help

Thumbnail
gallery
4 Upvotes

Hi all, looking to get “death to tyrants” tattooed in sindarin and looking for any help available. I’m not sure which of these is more accurate or if there is a direct word translation available vs just english letters.

Thanks in advance


r/sindarin • • 3d ago

Sindarin translation of the Song of Lebennin

4 Upvotes

The song of Lebennin is sung by Legolas in the Lord of the Rings.

Below is the original English text, followed by my Sindarin translation and some grammar notes, both of which I made some changes to based on suggestions in the Vinyë Lambengolmor Discord.

Original text

Silver flow the streams from Celos to Erui

In the green fields of Lebennin!

Tall grows the grass there. In the wind from the Sea

The white lilies sway,

And the golden bells are shaken of mallos and alfirin

In the green fields of Lebennin,

In the wind from the Sea!

Sindarin translation

Celebren siriar i sîr o Chelos n Erui

Mi pherth gelin Lebennin!

Orchal gala i ‘lae ennas. Min gwae uin gaear

I nelai nim pastar,

Ah i nill vellin pestennin mallos ah alfirin

Mi pherth gelin Lebennin

Min gwae uin gaear!

Notes

Updated celeb to celebren and ar to ah based on advice from F_Karnstein.

Chapter references are from A Fan’s Guide to Neo-Sindarin by Fiona Jallings, vocabulary from Parf Edhellen https://elfdict.com/

celebren -> made of silver -> celeb silver + -ren adjective suffix

siria- -> flow Noldorin word

od -> from/of is followed by Stop Mutation (5.2.2 Stop Mutation). See also https://eldamo.org/content/words/word-2407603967.html?neo.

Since Stop Mutation is one of the rare types of mutation it could be replaced by Vocalic Mutation (o Gelos instead of o Chelos).

parth -> field -> min + perth -> mi pherth in the fields (5.1.3.2 Plural "The" Prepositions)

Note: The consonant cluster rth at the end of parth prevents the usual ai plural ending

See https://eldamo.org/content/words/word-2894407865.html 'Lack of i-intrusion with Consonant Clusters' for details.

i ‘lae -> the grass -> vocalic mutation of glae following i -> using the late CEA article system this would be e ‘lae instead. https://eldamo.org/content/words/word-3256437065.html#cea

Min gwae -> min in the uses Mixed Mutation with the singular and Nasal in the plural. (5.1.4 Mixed Mutation). In mixed mutation only the en preposition has loss or change; min and uin remain unchanged.

uin -> from the uses Mixed Mutation with the singular

nala -> lily plural nelai. The alternative neli has been suggested based on a proposed etymology based on nalga, in which nala would be treated as belonging to the final a from ancient g group (4.1.2.3.5 Final A from Ancient G).

 https://eldamo.org/content/words/word-642851027.html?neo

nell -> bell Noldorin word -> plural nill

pestennin -> past participle (8.3.3 The Past Participle) plural form of pasta- -> shaken (sing. is pastannen)


r/sindarin • • 3d ago

What’s the best Sindarin translator?

0 Upvotes

I need to translate something for a DnD campaign of mine, and I’d be so grateful if someone could pass me the link of a nice English/any language to Sindarin translator.

This is the text by the way:

“I fell in love with you when you were still locked in an iron cage, kept in captivity in inhumane conditions for months.
I loved that version of you, and I’ll love every single one the has yet to come.
Do you wanna be my partner?

If y’all know where to search for pronunciation too it’d be great.


r/sindarin • • 5d ago

"Harbour bridge" translation into Sindarin

2 Upvotes

Hello hello. Just for my own writing etc, I was trying to work out how to translate the name of a bridge ("the Habour bridge", or similar), into Sindarin.

I understand 'bridge' is iant, and that 'harbour' or 'haven' is cirban, but I'm not sure how to combine the two. Ardalambion mentions varanduiniant, for the Bridge of Baranduin -- does that mean I can just go for cirbaniant? Or Iant Cirban?

And, if so, if I wanted the definite article included would it be i Girbaniant?

Any advice is welcome.


r/sindarin • • 6d ago

Tolkien language found in college lounge, please translate

Post image
12 Upvotes

r/sindarin • • 6d ago

can someone explain how to pick epithets as if im five

2 Upvotes

r/sindarin • • 6d ago

Quisera que alguien me ayude

0 Upvotes

Quiero tatuarme la sfechas de nacimiento de mis hijas en Tengwar. Son las siguientes:

Dieciocho de septiembre de dos mil doce

Uno de septiembre de dos mil quince

Veintinueve de agosto de dos mil veinte

Alguien me puede ayudar para ser lo más fiable posible por favor?


r/sindarin • • 7d ago

Trouble with translation/transscript

1 Upvotes

Hi,

I’m having trouble finding the correct translation from english to sindarin for ’older brother’ or alternatively ’oldest brother’. This would be for a tattoo, and I’d like some help with this from the experts. So far I’ve established that brother translates to hanar, but thats about it. Thanks in advance for help!


r/sindarin • • 7d ago

Looking for feedback on a this translation

1 Upvotes

I've been translating bits and pieces of poetry as a way to build knowledge and wanted to get feedback on this line to see how I'm doing.

The line is "What is poetry which does not save Nations or people?" from Czeslaw Milosz's poem "Dedication."

I translated this as: Man glíras i ú-natha nduir egor lî?

Glíras was created by me as a word for "poetry." I used the word glîr ("song, poem, lay") and added the abstract noun suffix -as. This is largely based on vibes. I feel that "poetry," as an art form, is a relatively abstract concept and that simply using "a poem" didn't quite capture what the line is trying to say.

There's a neo-Quenya word for poetry (lairesta), which is based on lairë ("poem") and -sta (verbal noun suffix). Glaer is listed as the closest cognate of lairë, but means "long lay, narrative poem." This didn't seem general enough for my purposes, so I opted for glîr. And while -sta seems to be more closely related to the Sindarin abstract noun suffix -th, I felt glîrth was pretty clunky, and so choose -as instead. Like I said, it's based on vibes, but I'm hoping the word is generally understandable/acceptable, even if there may be a word that is more technically correct.

Thanks for whatever time and feedback you can offer.


r/sindarin • • 8d ago

Engagement ring

0 Upvotes

I would like my fiancé's engagement ring to say:

"Meleth nîn uireb"

which translates to my eternal love in Sindarin.

How can I transcribe this into Tengwar? Thank you.


r/sindarin • • 8d ago

Help!!

Thumbnail
1 Upvotes

r/sindarin • • 9d ago

How to say "thank you"

2 Upvotes

Basically the title - apologies if that was already asked and answered, but you can imagine that it's a very tricky phrase to search for in this sub!


r/sindarin • • 12d ago

Help with naming

1 Upvotes

Playing The One Ring and as an Elf of Lindon looking to name a spear I just got. How do I make it something like Herald of Oblivion? If there's nothing close Fang of Fate or something along those lines will work


r/sindarin • • 13d ago

Monogram

Thumbnail
1 Upvotes

r/sindarin • • 14d ago

Engagement Ring Translation Help

2 Upvotes

I'm designing an engagement ring and would like to get the following text "Elf Queen" inscribed on the inside of the band in elvish.

After doing a little digging I came up with the following translation but wanted to get an expert pair of eyes on it. Could anyone confirm if this looks right?

Appreciate the time and consideration!


r/sindarin • • 15d ago

Help with translation

Post image
2 Upvotes

Hi, I'm looking for help with a translation to sindarin. I already learned the basics regarding grammar, chose the words that best fit the meaning I strive for, checked the phonetics and translated it to sindarin (gondor). For some words I had to adapt the grammar, because technically some are neo-sindarin.

Can someone who knows sindarin help me to check the meaning and spelling? AI, as usual, is not helpful and I'd love to discuss my translation with a human being :)

Sorry for any mistakes I made, english ist not my first language.


r/sindarin • • 15d ago

Name help

Post image
2 Upvotes

r/sindarin • • 19d ago

Elvish Study Buddy

2 Upvotes

Hello everyone! I'm new here (apologies if asking for a study buddy is against the rules) and just started reading lord of the rings and I'm loving it so far. I was wondering if anyone would want to be my study buddy for elvish? We could speak only in elvish and learn together.


r/sindarin • • 22d ago

Help with where to start

3 Upvotes

Howdy! I'm sure this has been asked an infinite amount of times here, but I'm looking for the best resources to start learning Sindarin. I've seen 'Gateway to Sindarin' mentioned, but I've also read that that is out of date. I've also seen a few people mention 'A beginners Guide to Neo-sindarin'. I already have the dictionary, and a certainly above average but still incomplete lexicon. Le hannon!


r/sindarin • • 24d ago

Are these translations alright?

2 Upvotes

I've been making weapon names for a setting I'm working on. I'd like feedback on the names, please.

Málidagdila - mace - Breaker of Many Hands

Sinqivilkila - sword - Cutter of Stones

Loethamînland - sickle - That which bends the space between


r/sindarin • • 25d ago

Please help with tattoo

1 Upvotes

Can anyone please show me what the word peace in Sindarin would look like. I've loved the Lord of the Rings universe since I was a child and I am much, much older now and I want a depiction of the word peace (what I want most these days) tattooed on my hand. Thank you for any help!


r/sindarin • • 27d ago

Coat rack i just finished up in a dwarven style. Sindarian written in Angerthas Eriabor

Thumbnail
gallery
33 Upvotes

Can you translate it?!


r/sindarin • • 28d ago

Translating “Swallow Of The Dawn” into Sindarin

1 Upvotes

Greetings and salutations! As the title states, I’m looking to translate “Swallow Of The Dawn” into Sindarin. Since context tends to help in these things, it would be a given name to a Mithril sword. Research has lead me to finding “Tuilinn Orëa” as a possible answer, but I’m not fully sure. Thank you in advance!