r/politics • u/Particular_Log_3594 • 6d ago

No Paywall Obama: Israel 'took the land' from Palestinians, 'ceded moral ground' in Gaza

https://www.jpost.com/international/article-911851
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u/MajorDrain 5d ago

President Barack Obama had the constitutional and executive authority to unilaterally recognize the State of Palestine during his presidency

The next US President will as well.

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u/MartinTheOrderly 5d ago

A state must have a permanent population, a defined territory, an effective government and the ability to enter into relations with other states. 

"Palestine" has none of those. Who would you have him "recognize?" 

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u/ZeUK 5d ago

Now repeat that thought experiment with Israel and you'll get called an antisemite.

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u/MartinTheOrderly 5d ago

And it's not a "thought experiment." 

Those are the requirements to be recognized as a state by the United Nations and "Palestine" does not meet them. 

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u/MartinTheOrderly 5d ago

Which one of those does Israel lack? 

Also, they already have recognition and have competently defeated any efforts to take it from them. 

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u/ZeUK 5d ago

Israel does not have a permanent population, defined territory or the ability to enter into relations with other states.

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u/MartinTheOrderly 5d ago

You're missing the fundamental point. You can argue all you like about the precise borders of Israel and who is legally inside of them, but there's still a broadly accepted idea of where Israel is and who is in charge? 

Where does Palestine begin and end? Are Gaza and the West Bank both "Palestine?" What government has the right to govern this indeterminate area? How can the President just unilaterally decide which one is the "real" Palestine?

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u/ZeUK 5d ago

The "real" Palestine starts where Israel ends. As long as we don't have clear definition of where that border is, it would not go amiss if we treated both equally on international terms. If we accept a vaguely-drawn out Israel, we can accept a vaguely-drawn out Palestine.

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u/MartinTheOrderly 5d ago

Israel accepted the UN's borders in 1948. Palestine didn't. Therefore, Israel became a country and Palestine didn't. 

This isn't a moral abstraction. It's a practical reality of geopolitics. Israel meets the practical definitions of a state. Palestine does not. 

The fact you refuse to understand this is why Palestine's hopes get dimmer by the day. 

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u/MartinTheOrderly 5d ago

While I understand where you're coming from on the first two, there are censuses and border guards and that's enough for rock and roll. 

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u/ZeUK 5d ago

If music genres were sufficient for peace, we'd be living in utopia. Alas, we instead in the real world where one set of people are denying the right to self-determination of another, and we're all busy asking of the one that already exists has a right to exist.

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u/MartinTheOrderly 5d ago

Not sure if you're being sarcastic or just aren't familiar with the phrase. What Israel has is close enough. 

Because Palestine has self-determined they don't want the country that already exists to exist. That is why Israel's right to exist always plays a part. 

And you haven't made an actual argument as to why Israeli censuses and border guards aren't enough to meet the UN definition. 

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u/MartinTheOrderly 5d ago

They recently entered diplomatic relations with something like half a dozen Arab nations, so on the last count you are objectively wrong. 

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u/ZeUK 5d ago

No comeback for the permanent population and defined territory thing, I see.

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u/MartinTheOrderly 5d ago

Quick on the trigger, not on the uptake. 

And I see you don't have an argument as to why you believe Israel can't form diplomatic relations with other states. 

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u/MajorDrain 5d ago

Do what other G7 nations do.

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u/MartinTheOrderly 5d ago

Which is? 

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u/MajorDrain 5d ago

Canada , France, and the UK

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u/MartinTheOrderly 5d ago

No, as in, what did they do? 

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u/MajorDrain 4d ago

You have Goggle the same as I do, but here it is.

Borders and Status: The UK recognizes Palestinian statehood based on 1967 provisional lines with equal land swaps, leaving the final status of Jerusalem and refugee matters to direct negotiations between Israelis and Palestinians

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u/MartinTheOrderly 4d ago

Okay, but who are they recognizing? They recognize what the borders are but not who is in charge and who has the right to live in them. 

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u/MajorDrain 3d ago

When Israel stops squatting on they'll probably figure something out.

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u/MartinTheOrderly 3d ago

What constitutes "squatting" in your opinion? 

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u/BillyJoeMac9095 5d ago

In return for what? Cooperation in serious peace talks?