What's the ideal number of runs per dungeon for the average player? For me, 3-4 times seems about right before I start getting sick of it.
I'm trying to understand the good-faith explanation why dungeon leveling is ruined. Is the argument that every single player is only going to run it once, and therefore it would be impossible to find a group for your second run? Hundred thousands of players on a mega server, all playing at different times and different speeds, and I'm never going to be able to fill for 4 runs? Am I not addicted enough to understand this? What am I missing?
Problem was that it used to be 3-4 runs in classic, that might get you the levels you need to progress to a better questing area or to a new dungeon, now thanks to 76 % nerf it's way more. Imagine if quests were nerfed 76 %, you'd do all of elwyn forest or durotar and still be at level 3.
Well, healers and tanks for one who like to play their class and actually heal and tank, if they stick to only dungeons, will take 300 more hours to hit max than anyone questing, so that sucks for those roles that they can't have fun and play their actual spec while leveling.
And then after release there'll be less people doing dungeons and they'll only need to do it once, and healers and tanks will only do one dungeon, so there'll be way less healers and tanks to run those dungeons with, making it harder to get actual groups. I've also seen many people say they aren't going to heal or tank anymore since they can't do more than one dungeon and that's the content they enjoy playing those specs for, so that dilutes the pool even further, even at 60. And I was going to play resto druid but now I'm going to be playing warlock because of it, so that's another healer gone.
And then no one is going to want to rerun dungeons now that there's no capped beta, so you're only going to get 1 run per group most likely, and any run past that first isn't going to really progress your character, especially if you get unlucky and get 0 loot drops, so even if your ideal number of runs is 4 that's still going to feel bad to run through since you aren't getting any exp for it, while before exp would have at least made it not feel like a waste of time.
There's also going to be at least a couple groups that try and do weird skips since mobs now aren't worth anything to kill, and that's going to be unpleasant for anyone who doesn't want skip runs or who is new. While some of those groups will say they're doing skips, plenty of them won't.
There's also now just going to be people boosting quest runs so that they can get all quests done from a 60 boosting them as well as all the dungeon loot, since if you can only really do a dungeon once you're going to want to secure any good drops instead of potentially having someone steal them, and because mobs don't give any exp the anti boosting exp nerfs don't matter at all, just the quests do.
And what tanks and healers there will be, some of them are going to be either not inviting certain classes anymore or hard reserving items since they'll only have one reasonable chance at getting an item in a dungeon if they don't want to slow down their leveling significantly to do extra runs, which is going to be most of them.
There's some more things that aren't quite coming to mind as well, but the exp nerfs just cause way more problems than they ever solved, especially since they already added anti boosting measures.
I appreciate the full response. For transparency, I plan to roll a prot warrior, holy priest, and melee hunter. When I think of dungeon grinding, I'm looking forward to it because I enjoy the moment to moment gameplay of these specs, especially tanking. It doesn't phase me at all if I'm leveling slower than questers, because I'll be enjoying my time and I have more time with my better loot for my level.
Another positive for prot warriors is that it's now the best leveling spec; so you're encouraged to use it in and out of dungeons.
if you try to level exclusively through dungeons, I think you're going to have to run each one so many times that you'll be sick of it long before you reach the next dungeon. questing isn't like 30% faster, it's more like 300% faster. it's like driving through a neighborhood versus driving on the highway.
Slow down Nostradamus, we haven’t had time to see how the changes really go but we’ve had 4 versions of WoW to watch players skip the entire open world in favor of dungeon spamming.
People know how to do math and we know what the later levels look like for exp. And without boosting there's not going to be a million players only dungeon spamming, there's going to be a ton of people in the open world already.
This is just Reddit schizo rambling. Genuinely all of this is your head canon and not reality. People will run dungeons normally, often and occasionally multiple times just like it has always been
I think it's more likely that with less incentives people will run it less, especially since we were ALREADY seeing negative side effects, including people running the dungeons that didn't give 30 bis less.
People are done with the beta now besides maybe chasing bis it’s natural that runs have dropped. On release not only will there be 20x more players, there will be a constant influx of new players + alts, the vast majority will just be enjoying the game at their own pace and would be happy to chain run something a few times to chase an item.
No I'm talking about throughout the entire beta no one was doing repeat runs if they weren't farming BIS in my experience, even when people asked no one did a repeat. It's a bit anecdotal, but others are reporting the same thing.
There will still be some people, yes, but there'll be a good amount less and definitely less tanks and healers which means less people to tank and heal for dps.
Healers and tanks are not only healers and tanks. Once you hit max level what are you going to do? Only raid and nothing else? Come on, you can still level. You have multi spec. Or quest in your dungeon spec. It’s not that hard.
So much whining by this community. Just play the game. See what it is like before you all lose your minds about it. Or submit your feedback in the beta like you’re supposed to and see what happens. The constant whining in Reddit isn’t helping anyone.
Okay, but people have more fun healing and tanking and you can only really do that in the dungeon. And this is submitting feedback, they've specifically stated they're looking at reddit for feedback.
Also dual spec is only at level 40 and is expensive enough to sacrifice a mount for, so you're not likely to get it right away. Also I don't get what max level has to do with anything?
Yea but if you’re trying to rush to max level you’re just ruining your own fun, because that forces you to whine about things when the devs didn’t make them fast or easy enough for you, which you’re entitled to have those views, but asking the devs to cater to that, is actually bad for the people playing the game with the opposite opinions.
It’s why I’m happy retail exists the people complaining about dungeon exp can literally just go there and rush to max level.
They are different games and one doesn’t have what you want and the other does, if you keep playing the one that doesn’t have the thing you want, that’s just your fault. I could understand small changes but this isn’t that at all. If you don’t like running the content just to run it then you’re not going to run it more just because of the exp and if you do run it more because of the exp, then I gotta reiterate that retail exists.
Ok with that said I gotta say i don’t even care what they do with dungeon exp, the people trying to rush will be quitting the game in a month anyways, I just like to argue with them because their argument is obviously complete bs. At least have a decent argument, you guys are literally just making dumb shit up lol
I don't want to rush to max level, I just want to get to max level without needing to play 400 hours if I only do dungeons when I'm playing healer? Like, I already said I'm just going to play warlock since I can't heal dungeons which is what I find fun, since I find questing more fun as warlock.
Also questing is the fastest way to level in retail, not dungeons. Like you're literally strawmanning me, I didn't say anything about rushing to max.
yea honestly I was going to roll a priest because I was really excited that I would have a large group of friends coming back to WoW so we could quest and dungeon together. But after seeing that we are getting 70% (or I guess 50% now?) less exp after our first dungeon, it just killed all excitement I had to be a dedicated healer for our group now that we have to go run around and fight for tags in the open world. I’m rolling a mage now at the advice of my friends since we think it’ll probably just be a more useful class for our group
I'm going priest first. You could still level in holy or disc, as smite priest has been performing so well it's been receiving nerfs in the most recent patch.
this is such a terrible attitude to have towards other people being disappointed that they can’t play the way they want to. The discourse surrounding dungeons is not “sweaty optimizers” vs “extreme casuals,” it’s just people wanting to play the game the way they want to and the way they always have been able to before. Assuming that everyone who enjoys leveling through dungeons is just trying to “rush to max level” doesn’t really make sense because if they were truly trying rush to max level… they would just be questing since it is exponentially faster. I’m glad your preferred way of playing has not been dramatically changed, but just as you said, the game is catering to you and it’s bad for the people with opposite opinions
No xp dungeon trash feels bad. XP is a nice consolation prize if a group falls apart, or you get no drops. Especially now if a group falls apart before quests you're kind of left with nothing.
I don't like that it encourages skipping dungeon trash whenever possible. I want to kill things in the dungeon. Honestly I hate these because everyone picks up on it, and when people do it wrong it causes wipes and makes it even slower. I experienced this a lot with the slave pens skip in tbc.
There's things in between 1 dungeon and pure dungeon grinding. Sometimes I would get a group to do a dungeon, and then after everyone had a good time so we run it back. Just another one to maybe finish some lingering drop quests, loot and xp. Then people carry on. People aren't incentivized to do this now.
I've tried leveling with a dedicated group of 5. Questing does not support it well. A lot of drop quests are painful with that many people, and you end up skipping a lot of stuff. The only real consistent experience is dungeons.
On the flip side "why remove it?"
Get people in the world. I understand this, but also I have a hard time believing there will ever be a single layer leveling zone where you can't put together a group quest.
Combat botting maybe? I guess it's easier for bots to hide in dungeon leveling up new accounts, if theyre in the world people might report them more. I don't really think this will actually stop bots, but it might slow them down a little.
I've always leveled questing and doing dungeons one time. I've never had any trouble playing that way, and never felt pressured to dungeon grind despite how much people talk about it. Vanilla is still popular because people like the world, and inorganically forcing people into it feels unnecessary to me especially when it comes with what I view as additional negatives.
Your third point is one I'd never considered. There's been so many times that someone in my dungeon group has said they're chasing an item that didn't drop, but everyone was having a good time and getting xp so we all just said we'd be down to run it back. Can't see that happening now with the xp nerfs.
This is a reasonable post, but I want to offer one counter argument by analogy:
Imagine you are a chef. You've come up with a bunch of new recipes and you're pretty sure most of them are great. The problem is a substantial number of your customers come in and only eat the chicken nuggets you offer on the menu because they are looking for the quickest and cheapest meal possible. You're pretty sure if they would just try your other offerings, they would like them but you can't get them to try anything but the chicken nuggets due to convenience. What do you do?
Sure, you can say "Just let people eat what they want" but you're pretty sure they would have a better time at your restaurant if they just tried something else. These people will claim they *know* chicken nuggets are the best meal for them, but they can't know that because they won't try anything but chicken nuggets ever because they are just looking to get in and get out as fast as possible rather than savor their meals!
Worse yet, some number of people *who don't even like chicken nuggets and would love your other meals* have been convinced that, due to the aforementioned convenience, they MUST have the chicken nuggets. "Why are you at the restaurant if you're not eating the bland, generic, microwaved chicken nuggets that are ready in 3 minutes and fill you up??" These people have a much worse time at your restaurant than they would have if you just didn't offer the chicken nuggets.
This is the position the devs are in with a large amount of the classic population and their newly redesigned world.
Not exactly, but kind of. The important difference between what I'm saying and "you think you do but you don't" is the latter is about you not liking something that you know you like. The thing I'm saying is about you *not even knowing if you like the new thing or not before you decide to never try it*.
If the old thing is so compelling, not because of intrinsic value but due to extrinsic reward structure, that you never try new things then the game is doing a disservice to you.
But I like chicken nuggets. I don't want your mashed duck beak salad topped with goat cheese. I literally don't want to eat it, it isn't good. I'll have some on the side but I see you have chicken nuggets right there, the same ones I've had for 20 years. Can I just eat the thing I like instead of the bullshit you're trying to make me like that I know I don't like?
I've played the beta. I've tried their "questing experience" and it's uninspired, bad rewards, barely any new quests. It's shit. If it was good I would enjoy doing it. So maybe focus on making the questing experience actually enjoyable instead.
Tanks/healers naturally would dungeon spam lets say 10 dungeons
DPS realisticly have a choice between questing/dungeon, so they would either join and dungeon spam. Or do ONE dungeon and the quest.
In a hypothetical scenario
You have 2 players. 1 tank 1 healer. They will drag, through 10 dungeons being done once by the DPS. 30 people.
Thats 1 tank 1 healer per 30 people.
Now? With these changes? Every 3 DPS NEEDS a new tank/healer as the tanks/healers realisticly wont dungeon spam (Unless you want to do actual hundreds of wailing caverns compared to like, 6-8)
Thats the issue, you will have such an incredible hard time finding tanks. If you think tanks/healers took too long in classic you will actually cry when you see how impossible it will now become.
Some people don't like questing, and choose to run dungeons instead. Now, once you complete your dungeon quests there is really no point in running the dungeon again. Even if there's a piece of gear you want, you could end up running that dungeon 10 times and not get the item and it becomes a complete waste of time since you get a negligible amount of xp.
And as you said, we will be playing on a mega server so even if dungeons were optimal, there would still be tons of people in the open world questing.
Dungeon spamming doesn't need to be optimal but it should at least be viable. There are billions of people in the world and each one has their own idea of what's fun, and the classic community seems to have forgotten that.
but do you see how you had a choice there to choose to run dungeons or go do world pvp? I wish we wouldn’t celebrate the devs taking away player choice from people who don’t want to fight people for tags in a mega server and would rather run dungeons a couple of times with their friends
okay so… are you suggesting that now questing should be the only viable option then? I’m a little confused. Do you think it’s valid if I like dungeoning more, but that I think we should both be able to play the way we prefer in Forever and that the devs should make that happen for both of us?
Who’s stopping you? Do you even know how much exp a mob gives in properly leaves dungeon right now? Because it’s not nothing it’s still like 86-90 exp and you get a lot of them. You still get gear. It’s just no longer the best way to level while still being the best way to get gear. And spare me the speed runner didn’t do dungeons, the average guy leveling isn’t a speed runner.
“not nothing” and it’s just 70% less exp than your first run. It’s an incredibly bad faith argument to insinuate that there is no effort to get us to not run multiple dungeon runs, the devs are literally disincentivizing us choosing to level in a dungeon instead of running around questing. If they made quests 70% slower than dungeons people would feel like they are being disincentivized to do them to, but would you be sitting here telling them “what’s stopping you?”
Idk man sounds like crying. I ran a ton of dungeons I played the beta. I had 3 level 30. I ran many almost every dungeon more than once on each character. Don’t sit here and try to explain it to me like I didn’t go through the thing. I understand you were crying because it is slower. I’m telling you I did the same thing. It was slower. I’m not crying about it. I actually like running dungeons you like leveling faster. If you wanna keep crying about it at least be honest what you’re crying about.
and if i said i played the beta too where do we go from here?? I want to run dungeons because I play healer and want to play my role with friends rather than having to fight millions of people on mega servers for tags in the open world while narcissists go into threads on Reddit claiming that their experiences are the only valid ones. I’m glad you didn’t have a bad time leveling.. because no one did because we just ran quests. The conversation, if you were paying attention rather than trying to be combative for no reason, is about players being allowed to play however we want without being artificially forced into a certain direction. I’m not crying, but you clearly need a hug or something dude
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u/SC2Sole 6h ago
What's the ideal number of runs per dungeon for the average player? For me, 3-4 times seems about right before I start getting sick of it.
I'm trying to understand the good-faith explanation why dungeon leveling is ruined. Is the argument that every single player is only going to run it once, and therefore it would be impossible to find a group for your second run? Hundred thousands of players on a mega server, all playing at different times and different speeds, and I'm never going to be able to fill for 4 runs? Am I not addicted enough to understand this? What am I missing?