"I love running dungeons, its my fav activity, it lets me play with my friends and we can avoid all the outside world and we can get a ton of gold and items and gear and we can just hang out for hours its great!"
Blizz developers. "Awesome, so we changed it, so now all of that is the same but it's no longer the optimal way to play. We don't want to see people going from level 28 to 44 in an afternoon with SM spam in 12 hours, and 44 to 60 with ZF and Mara and BRD spam in under 12 hours."
"Well, now dungeons suck I hate them. Why are you personally attacking me. Now no one will play tanks or healers."
I've never done a dungeon more than maybe 3-4 times per character but I still dislike the change because run 2-4 won't feel good to do. Simple as that.
Same, I really dislike how people frame anyone opposed to the change as degenerate min-maxers. I like to quest for a few levels then do a dungeon for a few levels. The nerf feels like im being punished for no reason.
those numbers seem to be like 5 times as fast as realistic, no group on earth is getting 44 to 60 in 12 hours spamming brds
these numbers are a bit above even solo mages doing 15 min brd runs, it would be completely insane to compare a group of levelers who aren't mages to a solo mage on era doing brd, not to mention those runs aren't even possible anymore
if you think that i'm going to get my 5 bros together, play rshaman, warrior, mage, warlock, feral druid, go into BRD and get 250k per hour in any version of the game you've bumped your head
"Haha, booster, you can't spam dungeons anymore! You're a hypocrite, you never loved dungeons you just loved the xp!"
Just curious, how often did you go back and kill kobold vermin after you left Northshire Abbey? Aren't they still menacing the area? Oh you didn't go back?
Strange, I guess you don't truly love the game either, you just love the xp.
A mage soloing ZF GY with scarabs before they broke the farm is not getting the kind of experience rate you seem to think dungeon cleave groups get.
You can make an argument that dungeon spam shouldn't be comparable to questing without throwing out ridiculous numbers to pretend an optimal dungeon spam group wasn't at most maybe slightly better exp per hour than questing.
There is a difference between dungeons being suboptimal for leveling, and dungeons being a legitimate waste of time for leveling. A 76% xp nerf is the latter.
This is so fkn stupid omg. World first runners don’t have 4 people near their level to dungeon with. It’s not optimal for them, they have to remain well ahead of the pack. For everyone else, dungeon spam within certain level brackets was by far the best XP per hour however it relied upon having 4 others who were willing to do it and it required organisation. So if you’re an average joe it’s easier to quest
Sorry to burst your bubble, but I'm not referring to neckbeards sitting in their own filth setting speed records. For that questing still isn't correct either, which is what I was replying to. I'm referring to normal folks, spamming dungeons was faster then solo questing. It was. Guilds would do it on purpose to lvl people fast. I know. I was there.
You're not making sense. It's either faster or it's not.
The only reason we jumped into dungeons at times was because open world was flooded and mob tagging was a nightmare. You don't solve that by removing dungeons as a viable option.
Dungeons were not faster than questing. Dungeons were faster then questing in a completely flooded world.
What guilds would do to level people fast was mob tagging.
There were level brackets where it briefly was faster to spam some dungeons, but you'd always return to open world for better speeds, neckbeard or not.
If so why not just link an example of how fast an optimized 5man group could do it then?
Just give a ballpark figure what the time played was at least.
Its almost like you dint understand how the game works. Its pretty fucking obvious why world firsts arent dungeon spammers. Spoilers its not the dungeon xp/hr.
but, it is. if you mean speedrunners thats different, but world first racers allways choose the most optimal way to level, and that was never, - apart from a short glitched period on 2019 release- the most efficient way to level
Yes they choose the optimal way to level straight through 1-60, dungeons require a group and basing your speedrun off the expectation that you'll be able to fill your dungeon group when youre at that level is not a guarantee, even if you have a squad going with you a tank/healer is not going to match a solo mage/hunters questing pace. The world first crowd will always choose the routes thats optimal at launch which is why they never include dungeons. SM and ZF runs absolutely do give more xp/hour than questing in those level ranges.
Aggrend is a known liar. He has no data lol. He doesn't know what optimal questing is, he doesn't know what optimal dungeon grinding is. He plays a paladin and follows the restedxp addon lol.
It is infinitely more work to pre plan and optimize and execute a perfect 1-60 leveling route than it is to invite 3 frost mages a priest and a warlock into your group and run the dungeon 10 times.
It's never been the fastest for average players. Because an average player needs to find a whole new group, of varying skill levels. Varying coordination levels, etc. Every single dungeon.
So many people on this subreddit have single digit IQ and it shows
"no longer the optimal way to level" more like you literally cant level at all. You'd have to run the same dungeon like 10 times for 10+ hrs to get a single level at this point meanwhile not even questing just killing mobs would get you 5+ levels in like maybe 2hrs
One caveat they’ll harp on is that you said optimal. It wasn’t optimal but it was comparable and 100% was way more lucrative gold and gear wise than simply questing.
I think that there are different levels of "optimal," as weird as that sounds. Maybe there is a better word for it.
"Hyper planned and practiced," I am running this route because I have tested it and planned every moment of the route, and could run it in my sleep because I've perfected it so much. Think streamers looking to get world first.
"Emulating hyper planning", which is just trying to copy the route that the first group did. THey saw their favorite streamer get world first using this strat, so they are going to do it to, or they are following a RestedXP guide, etc.
"No pre-panning, but based on the natural feel of the game this feels like the best use of my time." They aren't using a spreadsheet to perfect their route, no guide addon, but they do care about leveling fast and have a solid feel for how quickly they are getting experience at any given level when they are yolo'ing whatever particular activity they are doing at the given moment.
"I'm just here for the vibes, I'mma do what I want and don't care about optimization at all" They don't care about leveling speed, they are doing whatever is fun in the moment.
I think that when people on reddit are talking about "optimized", they are referring to the first two groups. I think that when Blizzard talks about "Optimized" they are generally referring to the third group.
Perhaps the useful distinction could be "Optimized" vs "Hyper-optimized." Dungeon-spam is the easiest form of optimization to YOLO. Youd don't need a guide to level via dungeon spam, but you do need a specifically preplanned route if you want to beat dungeonspam as a leveling tool. Someone just out there YOLOing quests without a hyper-optimized, preplanned route is never going to come close to the leveling speed of someone just YOLOing dungeon spam.
Oh man, the fact that you completely ignored that BOE drop rates are massively higher in dungeons than in the open world and the fact that you’re pretending you don’t make a shit ton of gold from them in addition the passive gold means you never had any intention of being genuine about the discussion.
Are you talking epic BOEs or the few rares that people actually buy? I've won a few sellable blues for some money, nothing life changing though, and I don't think I've ever won a valuable epic BOE. And I've run a LOT of dungeons
Where do you think all the Edgemaster's on Classic were coming from? Open world drops? Fuck no lmao, they were all from people farming BRD from level 48-60.
And I'm not just talking about epics. The drop rate of greens and blues are massively higher in dungeons. How many greens do you find while questing, 1 an hour, maybe 2? While in dungeons they are dropping every other pack. And all greens add up good money quick, especially if you're an enchanter.
No idea, I've never seen them drop in all my runs of BRD. I don't think the drop rate is as massively high as you think it is, these servers are just huge and lots get posted as a consequence
Those greens and blues are 90% not selling on the AH, nobody is buying your mail of the Whale greens. Some blues are good and worth some money but it's really not a huge amount. You're better off DE most of the time (or just vendoring) and selling the enchanting mats that actually sell, that's just the greens though, the mats from blues don't have much of a market. At least in classic, that demand may have changed in Forever
I think you're way overestimating the gold you get from dungeons honestly
Boe drops? Lmao. Tell me you don’t play the game. How many characters have you dungeon grinded? Zero. You can spam all the way to 60 and not see a single epic boe item. Blues? Almost all of them are worthless besides a select few. You literally have no idea what your talking about out
For most level ranges yes but not for all, which is what they’ll harp on and give you some “but actually” statement mentioning racing to world’s first 60.
World first 60s are too far ahead of the pack to dungeon spam. The only players even close to their level range are other world first speed runners who want the top prize themselves. Also, in era mage AoE farming was quicker(on low pop realms OR if you’re ahead of the pack like Jokerd was) but that won’t be the case anymore due to the changes to mages.
For someone not that far ahead, such as someone levelling an alt, spamming dungeons in the mid game is the fastest way to level BUT it does require having consistent groups which is hard to find and requires organisation.
Dungeon spamming is the fastest low effort method. Efficient mob grinding and questing routes are usually the "optimal" way to level. If you have a proper route, dungeon spamming usually loses the race.
Certain level brackets absolutely have dungeons giving more xp/hour than questing. Speedrunners dont utilize this because you dont magically have a tank or healer keeping up with your mage/hunter speedrunning pace...
So you are saying the time to find a dungeon group doesn't count towards what is "optimal"? To me, optimal means the most efficient and/or fastest way to do something. If solo leveling is as fast as dungeon spamming, then it's certainly the optimal play.
No I dont think i was implying that at all, my bad if I was. The time absolutely does count but speedrunners would have their groups set in stone pre launch. Not every dungeon is equal though so even then it all depends some levels questing will be way faster and some dungeons(given you only have to travel once to the dungeon and the group doesn't give up after a run or two). World firsts are always questers because theres too many variables to rely with dungeons. Its why you see the people running to 60 hunkered down in their set dungeon groups but world first chasers in the open world. So all in all i guess its your definition of optimal play, if its just xp/hr though optimal is frankly a mix of both dungeon spamming and questing depending on your faction, and level.
My god dude lol. How many times do you need it explained to you?
Assuming someone has 4 players ready to lock in and run the dungeons, dungeon spam is absolutely more XP per hour in certain level brackets than questing can be. BUT it’s hard to find those consistent groups and of course questing is faster if you’re sitting around waiting for people to join the dungeon.
Yeah I think "Fastest/Low effort" is a good key word for the convo. Something can be sub optimal on paper statistically but if it's also low effort then that gives it like a bonus point towards it's optimization stat
Again - regarded. How else would you boost? Of course it was spammed to boost, there’s no other option. That doesn’t make it the most efficient way to level.
It has actually been optimal with a full squad. Its much more approachable than learning questing/open world aoe farming which is contested. Meanwhile dungeons are instanced and much more approachable with less prep.
Like I said for the average player dungeon spam was the most approachable. You didn't need to practice aoe farming in various locations or the proper questing paths (rxp is not optimal for this). If you play SoD or anniv you'd know cause once you hit SM people spammed that until they could run ZF and then spam endgame dungeons or just got boosted through those same dungeons. There's a reason that its a well known joke (even said at blizzcon) that people ran smgy 25 times.
Approachable doesnt mean optimal, optimal means best, dungeon spamming has never been best. Yes people have dungeon spammed, but why is that a problem? especially when its worse then alternatives. Now its nuked and not an option for getting experience at all. It was worse before and now it was nerfed by 76%, its not even remotely reasonable.
The race to 60 is not a good comparison to normal levelling. Speed runners in wow pull absolutely degenerate hours. I’m talking only sleep for 1-4 hours during the entire run to 60. They’re very rare and they’re not going to risk it by relying on 4 other who are able to keep up with what they do. It’s not a realistic scenario. World first runners are so ahead of the pack that there is literally not 4 other people near the level
One caveat they’ll harp on is that you said optimal. It wasn’t optimal but it was comparable and 100% was way more lucrative gold and gear wise than simply questing.
And they face none of the friction of the open world. Travel times, pvp, rng droprates, competition for quests and items. If dungeons only gave slightly less exp than optimal questing then they are still miles better.
As someone that has dungeon grinded in Era, TBC (Twice) and WotLK as well as retail (Before I quit retail)
It is the defacto way to optimal level, and if you make a specific cleave group for it, it's disgustingly fast.
28-44 in half a day shouldn't be possible, and isn't possible with regular questing. SM spam it is.
Its stupidly simple to.
DM>Stocks>SM>ZF>Mara>BRD.
6 Dungeons, you never need to touch anything else.
For Horde its RFC>WC>RFD>SM>ZF>Mara>BRD.
You never need to touch a single quest, and by the end of it you'll have a metric ton of gold from selling greens and blues and drops and cloth. You can easily hit max level in under 60 hours which puts you at "Super sweat Solo questing with paid addons" Level.
In 2019 Jokerd I believe hit max level in like 77-87 hours or something? Since then just regular dungeon spam easily beats it with unoptimal groups.
Lets be honest, no one is dungeon grinding with pugs. Dungeon grinding is a group activity. You get players you know to do it with you for long periods of time.
They would be in discord with you and from the same guild. No one was expecting pugging randos to be fast at anything.
I have done back to back dungeons with pug players for years.
The nerf overwhealmingly impacts non-stacks. Its not "you get reduced XP if you cleared already today" it's just flat. As a healer this effectively means that dungeons are off the table after the first clear. Now its so inefficient that I should only quest and mob stack.
And with party XP gains also being focused around the optimized parties. It completely removes any reason to party up unless I am unable to clear the mobs myself at any decent pace (I.E. if they are 4 or 5 levels above me).
Im not expecting pugging with randos to be fast. Im expecting it to be something at least worth doing. As it stands? It isnt. Do it for the quest. Never again. Which is ridiculous for those of us who play healers. And want to actually play healer.
Let’s Actually be honest. Most people will WANT the speed of an efficiently clearing dungeon group. They will wait and wait for an efficient group over taking a suboptimal class. They will never get the optimal group. They will get the optimal group only to wipe on trash, and disband, as nauseum.
This has happened with every “fresh” experience, and you are delusional if you think k that it will not happen again. Especially at launch. Hell, I guarantee these dungeon nerfs will go unnoticed by these players (elite noobs) for the first few days of wowF.
Oh I’m 100% in agreement with you but since no one who’s done worlds first did it with solely dungeon spamming, they’ll claim it can’t be counted as optimal.
From my understanding was they intend to do a fair bit of non dungeon cleaving as well. They'll do a quest run for each dungeon and the cleave through the quests.(im not a frequent watcher so maybe i misunderstood the plan)
No, I still love dungeons. I just am not allowed to play them more than once now bc I literally cannot progress my character through dungeons anymore. What an bad faith way to pose this too "its no longer optimal" implies they are even comparable. Dungeon leveling isnt viable at this point bc the dungeon exp is abysmal. If it was 10-15% slower I could live with that not when its 5-10x slower. Its not realistic to level in dungeons at all with the current changes.
You're absolutely right and this comunity has been downvoting this fact so much ever since the nerf.
They keep saying that the ONLY reason they spam one dungeon for hours is because they like to hang with friends and nothing else matters, but when you point out that absolutely nothing changed that, or that you can do the same thing with friends questing in the normal map, you get flamed and downvoted because you "don't understand man".
Why can’t they make spamming dungeons and questing in the open world be equally as efficient? That would solve the problem. I am a casual player that does not want to race to 60, but it still makes doing dungeons with your friends over and over not as fun just knowing that you are not getting rewarded as well for your time as you would be if you were questing. And I am not trying to get to 60 as fast as possible. Doing a dungeon over and over with my pals is really fun to me and is one of my favorite parts of classic.
And I still do plenty of questing in the open world.
I guess if the problem is boosting, it seems like they could come up with a better way to combat that
Okay and if someone feels like they want to do dungeons over and over, what’s wrong with that? There will still be plenty of people questing in the open world
Whats wrong with that? It goes against one of the design pillars of Wow Forever: The World as the main character. Developers actively shape the game so that players are encouraged to adventure. Theyve been doing so since launch. Recycling 1 dungeon ad nauseum because its low effort and efficient is discouraged, and xp is balanced accordingly. And please dont forget you get MORE XP from the first 1-2 clears with quest turn ins. So its a carrot and a stick.
If you dont like the design pillars the game is based on you will continue to be find this game frustrating.
Nothing is wrong with it, do it to your heart‘s content!
Oh, wait, you mean that you want to be able to progress through leveling without having to advance through new content?
Well, you can’t repeat the same dungeons (or quests, for that matter) over and over again to level up efficiently - you’ll have to choose between spending dozens of hours hanging around in your favorite dungeons/zones for the sake of fun (which is still an option if truly you enjoy it) or moving through new content, as the devs intended, to level up.
Okay and I disagree with the devs because I find the occasional night spent dungeon spamming with my pals very fun. But not being rewarded for time invested makes it not fun. Even though I am a casual I still care about being rewarded adequately.
I still like questing in the open world too. I like variety
I’m also casual and like both questing and dungeons.
I guess I just don’t feel like something “isn’t rewarding” if it pays in gold/loot and not XP.
Like, farming reagents to up your professions and make gold doesn’t help level and is actually boring in and of itself (unlike dungeons), but it’s still rewarding (in gold and in furthering your professions skills) enough for most players to do it.
Tbh, I genuinely believe that most people who are really affected by this are people who want a pathway that lets them level up at the same rate as players who play through the open world content (without having to actually do that major aspect of the game, once they hit mid-level) and that most people who like both open world content and instanced content will be fine and adequately get their fill of both, but for the people who are upset by this, sorry, I hope that if the game piqued your interest you’ll try it anyway and maybe even be pleasantly surprised that you’re able to level at a pace that feels acceptable to you while still getting your fill of dungeons.
I guess we’ll see if I like it. I just think dungeons are so much more fun and social compared to questing. It’s nice to have another way to level up at a normal pace. Instead of only questing
I also feel like I don’t care if there are people who only want to spam dungeons, people who only want to do quests, and everything in between. People should do what is fun to them. The world still felt alive to me back when I played in 2019-2021 when people were dungeon spamming
I really don’t care either. I never even thought of this until these recent rules for dungeon XP came up.
I have no personal interest in forcing people to minimize their dungeon runs lol. But I think it’s fair for the people who develop the game to reward people for progressing through a certain pathway and reduce rewards (especially leveling) for pathways that deviate from what their vision of the game is.
I have nights where I hop on and just beebop around Elwynn Forest for the nostalgia or solo run through an old dungeon that I’m over-leveled for (to try to grab some BOE gear for my alts), and I don’t expect XP out of it, because I know I’m making a tradeoff, which is a core feature of a game, imo.
Just like if you want to do a lot of farming (to make gold or up your professions) alongside your leveling, the tradeoff is you’ll level slower but have more gold, more crafting capabilities by the time you reach endgame, etc. - so if people like grinding dungeons (either for fun or to grab gear/loot) and they’re doing relatively less questing to accommodate the dungeon grinding, yeah, they may level a little bit slower, but it’s not like they have to choose “level via quests or stagnate via dungeons,” there are dungeon quests, first-time dungeon runs, alternating content, etc. to accommodate a person’s goals.
because they want you to play the game the way THEY think the game should be played, if you dont agree then you are wrong and stupid and should go back to retail
Why can’t they make fishing and farming herbs equally as efficient for leveling as dungeons and questing?
Because the devs decided to design this game as primarily an open-world MMORPG, and they want people to have to advance through new open-world content in order to progress.
Repeating quests over and over isn’t possible for leveling and never has been, either; you have to do new quests to get XP, just like you get XP for running dungeons for the first time (especially a dungeon quest).
The re-runs are what is heavily nerfed, and it’s pretty clear that they’ve structured it that way on purpose.
lol as if quests aren’t repetitive af.
Okay I guess we will see if the devs are right. All I’m saying is I will miss dungeon spamming with the fellas until 3 am. I enjoy the open world as well. I like both and I think there are a lot of players that agree with me
You're really going to pretend that not wanting leveling to take 4-5x longer is the same as wanting it to be optimal?
> Top 1% commenter.
Oh I see your time means nothing to you, that makes sense.
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u/Wind_Best_1440 7h ago
"I love running dungeons, its my fav activity, it lets me play with my friends and we can avoid all the outside world and we can get a ton of gold and items and gear and we can just hang out for hours its great!"
Blizz developers. "Awesome, so we changed it, so now all of that is the same but it's no longer the optimal way to play. We don't want to see people going from level 28 to 44 in an afternoon with SM spam in 12 hours, and 44 to 60 with ZF and Mara and BRD spam in under 12 hours."
"Well, now dungeons suck I hate them. Why are you personally attacking me. Now no one will play tanks or healers."