r/classicwow • u/plants4life262 • 11h ago
Humor / Meme “Buff”
At this point all we can do is laugh, cry and pray.
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u/Freshndecay 11h ago
2% crit damage is fucking laughable
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u/plants4life262 11h ago
The math on it is hilarious. Like do these guys just check the numbers at all? Or they think all 2s are created equally 🤣
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u/new_math 11h ago
This might be a spicy opinion but sometimes I wonder if the design teams at blizzard are predominately creative types and backgrounds, and they don't have anyone vocal with a mathematics, statistics, simulation, etc. background.
It's kind of a pattern that they try to balance or tune something and a lot of people immediately realize just with napkin math something doesn't look right. They definitely have a reputation of tuning with a sledge hammer.
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u/plants4life262 11h ago
I posted before that dev teams need a “numbers guy” and got eaten alive. I think you are right, they are creative types predominantly and need a numbers guy to check for balance.
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u/MWoody13 5h ago
A fricken high schooler can do the math in 10 minutes. Them being creative fellas is not enough reason for these asinine figures
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u/Terrible_Truth 11h ago
Yeah I mean during SoD Scarlet Enclave released with a boss that had so much HP, it would be like a 20 minute fight with everyone doing max DPS lmao.
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u/itsablackhole 8h ago
Pre nerf Eranikus was virtually unkillable aswell
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u/ChangeFatigue 5h ago
Wasn’t this the reason Ian Hazzikostas was hired? He essentially proved with math that a boss in AQ was unlikable with the gear in the game?
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u/new_math 10h ago
The weird thing about that, baring any weird mechanics that drastically modify or prevent dps, this is middle school math. Divide boss health by median raid dps. See if it's a reasonable number (maybe 250 to 500 seconds).
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u/ChibiHobo 11h ago edited 11h ago
I mean, if you compare it to talents that increase crit damage, most of those are 6% per point. The racial is worth more or less a third of a talent...
I think if it was 10%, it'd still be balanced till maybe late-late game, but 5% would be a bare minimum.
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u/plants4life262 11h ago
Yep 10% is probably the ball park we need to be in. And even at that it’s only the very high crit chance specs that are getting the juice out of it.
And even so for something like enhance, I’d still take the crit chance because EVERYTHING procs from a crit (or at least it has in tbc and wrath, I’m less familiar with era and forever enhance)
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u/ChibiHobo 11h ago
Not to mention, the spec I'd think wants crit the most is fire mage, no? Something dwarves can't even be (for now... I have a gut feeling we'll get dwarf mages/warlocks in a patch way down the line)
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u/vowelqueue 7h ago
The funnier thing is we don't even know for sure how the racial works mathematically because it's not even in the game yet. They updated the tooltip but didn't implement it (or they messed up implementation so bad it just doesn't work).
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u/plants4life262 7h ago
There’s a few variables such as if it’s multiplicative or additive, but nothing really undefined that could put this even close to on par with something like 2% crit. Under most assumptions were off by almost an entire order of magnitude.
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u/vowelqueue 7h ago
I think the intention was to have it be similar to 1% crit. At low gear levels it does indeed suck in comparison but depending on how it's implemented it could be comparable later in the game.
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u/Gold-Appearance-4463 8h ago
It was never meant to be equal. It’s wild that people can’t figure that out.
It’s supposed to be roughly equal to 1% crit. Is it? Guess it depends on gear level and class/spec.
Dwarf 5% beast damage (and Tauren health) is the other half of the PvE bonus. If anything you should argue they change those to a more universal bonus if you absolutely must.
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u/vowelqueue 7h ago
The problem I have is that Forever is a slow-paced game where it takes time to level and acquire gear upgrades. If you make a new Orc then right off the bat you're critting 20% more often than the other Horde races. Obviously that falls off as you acquire gear but it remains a good stat at pretty much all gear levels. The +2% crit damage sucks hard at first, is barely noticeable, and doesn't compete mathematically until high gear levels. I liked 1% hit way more.
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u/Gold-Appearance-4463 6h ago
They dropped hit since it gave nothing to healers. Not an elegant solution but this make the bonus apply to more specs/classes
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u/MassiveSaltyBiscuit 11h ago
The hit was crazy good, made such a difference levelling.
2% crit damage is insultingly bad when Nelf and Human keep theirs.
Just remove stats from racials if you're not going to balance them
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u/ravens52 11h ago
Agreed. Make facials a flavor thing or something that doesn’t impact combat. Like, I remember humans getting a bonus to earning rep. That’s a nice change that doesn’t impact the game in a meaningful way.
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u/Bungulator69 11h ago
I’m still going beef. Beef all day
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u/ravens52 11h ago
I wish they gave Tauren the ability to become paladins. I would’ve preferred that over only being able to roll undead
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u/Drev09 8h ago
Why. Why the heck do you people think Tauren paladin makes ANY sense, in any capacity, at all, ever.
Tauren are naturalist tribal types ffs. It's nearly the total opposite.
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u/censuur12 7h ago
Probably because Paladin lore never made sense to begin with? It's been retconned so often it's not like there's some consistent throughline.
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u/Talidel 2h ago
Sunwalkers.
Tauren worship the sun and gain access to the light through that belief.
Humans access the light because they believe themselves to be good and right. There's no requirement there for anything arcane.
Humans teach that to access the light they only need, respect, tenacity, and compassion. There's literally nothing in that that says a more tribal race cannot access it.
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u/Intelligent_Copy440 6h ago
Tauren shouldn’t be Paladins but they do hold reverence for An’she who’s the sun, they also hold the moon in reverence too but a different name than the elves and Elune.
Personally, I’d like Sun Walkers back but a new class compared to Paladins and give Night Elves Moon Warriors that’s the same class but instead of gold spells they’re silver with different names but same effects. Would be fun.
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u/BrokenZen 7h ago
Tauren are naturalists. Any naturalist can make the connection of "sun = plant growth, plant growth = earth mother thriving". Tauren would then revere the sun as a light and life giver.
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u/Drev09 1h ago
Yeah, that has absolutely nothing to do with "the light" which is effectively a stand in for God or the creator. Paladins don't worship the sun.
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u/Sandman145 7h ago
same but everytime i miss something important i will remember the day they chose to give us a joke in the place of 1% hit.
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u/plants4life262 11h ago
Blizzard has stated that then want racials fully locked in at launch. Surely they’re gonna give this one las look right? I want to go beef too
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u/specificnonspecifics 10h ago
This is the kinda thing I think about when commenters in this sub say shit like "trust the Devs, they know what they're doing with these changes"... Bruh.
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u/censuur12 7h ago
Nah I just look at the holy and prot paladin talent trees. No thought went into that at all.
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u/ctrlaltwalsh 10h ago
If 1 talent is usually 1% crit, and 1 talent is 6% crit damage (for a phys) or 20% crit damage for a caster, why the fuck do humans get 2 talents worth of crit and we're getting 1/3rd (or 1/10th) of a talent worth of crit damage?
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u/Imprettystrong 11h ago
2% base crit is OP but 2% damage is nothing, at least make it like 5% crit damage
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u/plants4life262 11h ago edited 11h ago
Even at 30% crit rate 5% crit damage still under performs 2% crit chance. And that’s not even factoring all of the things that landing a crit can proc.
I think crit damage is a bad racial stat because the numbers you need for balance feel to big and are unsettling.
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u/tonyjaa 6h ago
My napkin math is showing that at 30% crit, 2% crit damage is about the same as 1% crit for yellow hits, and for white hits the crit damage is more than twice as good. Are you assuming crit damage is additive or multiplicative (like retail)?
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u/plants4life262 6h ago
Assuming it’s additive. So doing 2% more damage 30% of the time (.02 x .3 =0.006 or .6% more damage). That goes up modestly if it’s multiplicative and dependent on how much other crit damage adds you have (talents namely)
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u/gusare 10h ago
At the end of the day, you either crit or you don't - just because you have 30% crit chance, it doesn't mean that you will crit 30% of the time. If a dwarf crits as often as a human in a given pull, who is gonna do more dps? All this analysis and it will still boil down to the fact that you will get outdpsed by a guy who rolled higher and had more deadly aspects procs than you.
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u/EggPsychological4844 11h ago
I am just amazed that they could make Dwarves worse than they were before.
It won't stop me playing them. They're my favourite race. But man it suck knowing that I'll be worse at every role than humans AGAIN.
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u/WhiskeyJack33 11h ago
dwarves are still arguably better than tauren dps wise because of beast, but yeah... both bad
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u/EggPsychological4844 11h ago
How often are you fighting beasts that don't die instantly anyway?
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u/Silverbacks 11h ago
It’ll help with a few raid bosses, against hunter pets, and if you grind beasts for skinning money. But yeah it’s a little boring and completely forgettable. Plus it isn’t even unique, trolls get the same thing (theirs should be changed to Headhunter: increased damage to humanoids).
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u/Playful_JungleWizard 10h ago
Headhunter might be fitting, but probably too many humanoids. Are players included in that?
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u/Silverbacks 10h ago
It doesn’t have to be 5%, it can be lowered.
I’m not sure if players are included in the rogue talent that increases damage to humanoids? If they are, then they would probably have to be included to keep things consistent and work with that. Human and orc crit racials work on players too.
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u/Substantial_Wind_278 11h ago
It will depend on the raids, but back in MoP, top guilds race changed to Trolls in ToT prog since half the bosses were classified as beasts. And when people are freaking out about seeking out 1 or 2% dps increases, the flat 5% is crazy good. Of course, if there's no beast bosses then its a wasted racial
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u/WhiskeyJack33 7h ago
don't forget skyborne, which already has arguably one of the best or the best passive damage racials with haste, and the best active for some classes with mana regen, also gets 5% elemental. Which affects at least 1 raid and possibly multiple.
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u/plants4life262 11h ago
Yeah I wanted to play Tauren resto shaman and was willing to go with the 1% hit even though it only helps my interrupts. Guess I’m rolling Skyborne.
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u/heywhodisis 8h ago
Tauren changes were net positive for healers. The Crit damage works on healing, 3% Mount speed is new, and better self peeling with faster stomp cd (stomp earrhbind or wolf out)
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u/Ok_Presentation_2346 11h ago
Honestly, I kind of hope they go back to weapon specializations, but make each of them apply to two weapon types. (That way you aren't completely locked out from a racial by your class.)
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u/Egeras 10h ago
I was hoping they would do something like "0.5% crit, Doubled while using axes" for orcs or something so that it didn't feel as bad when you weren't using the choice weapon but in endgame still made bis sets different for different races which I always found fun flavour-wise.
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u/Rabidchiwawa007 8h ago
In fact they changed it like this:
+1% crit while you *have an axe equipped*.In my mind, this wording means if you have a fist weapon in your main hand and an axe in your offhand, you're still getting that full racial benefit.
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u/CaseMaleficent8205 3h ago
Racials should be meaningful from the start and not only in the endgame sweatfest. 2% crit damage is literally fucking nothing while leveling.
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u/Dry-Chain-4418 10h ago edited 7h ago
They just need to make this a multi and not adder (not sure if it is or not) but it drastically drops the break even point.
200% base crit damage
| Crit damage racial | Crit chance racial | Equal at |
|---|---|---|
| Additive +2% crit damage | +2% crit chance | 100% crit / 202% crit damage = 102% crit / 200% crit damage |
| Multiplicative +2% crit damage | +2% crit chance | 50% crit / 204% crit damage = 52% crit / 200% crit damage |
150% base crit damage
| Crit damage racial | Crit chance racial | Equal at |
|---|---|---|
| Additive +2% crit damage | +2% crit chance | 50% crit / 152% crit damage = 52% crit / 150% crit damage |
| Multiplicative +2% crit damage | +2% crit chance | 33.33% crit / 153% crit damage = 35.33% crit / 150% crit damage |
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u/One_Recognition385 9h ago
break even point isn't even that low.
As that calculator (lets take warriors for instance.) Doesn't take into account 2x rage on crit (multiplier does not give more rage.) flurry (attack speed on crit.) Impale (20% increased crit damage.) deep wounds (stacking bleed on crit.) ect.
talent points values 1% crit chance as 1 talent point, and 10% crit damage as one talent point.
So humans get 2 free talent points from their racial, and taurens/dwarves get 1/5 talent points from their racial.
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u/Dry-Chain-4418 9h ago
Even more reason it should be a multi and not additive.
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u/One_Recognition385 9h ago
it need to be above 2% to matter and even then its never gonna be better then crit chance.
taurens should just go back to hit, dwarves go back to crit, and humans get nerfed to 1% crit.
dwarves and gnomes need to get the horde special and have their immunity racials changed to dispels.
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u/Dry-Chain-4418 8h ago
It depends on the class and scenario. Rogues and Feral Druids, for example, can reach 50%+ crit chance with consumables, flasks, elixirs, and full raid buffs. Druids can also use Berserking to reach 100% crit chance during their cooldown window.
I think racials should have meaningful trade-offs, with pros, cons, and specific situations where one is clearly better than the other. They shouldn't be direct 1:1 replacements where one option is almost always superior or both options are 100% identical regardless of class, build, or scenario.
Making the crit damage bonus multiplicative wouldn't make it universally better than crit chance. It would just create more situations where crit damage is a competitive alternative, particularly for classes and builds that can stack crit chance or benefit from higher crit damage multipliers.
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u/One_Recognition385 7h ago
2% crit damage is never gonna be better then 2% crit chance.
i liked tauren having 1% hit chance because it was equal to 1% crit chance and was a meaningful choice, 2% crit damage is meaningless. i'd prefer that reverted.
give the multiplicative crit damage for dwarves maybe, why not?
either way, human 2% crit chance needs to be nerfed to 1%.
and the eureka needs to be nerfed too.
the immunities gnome and dwarves probably need to be nerfed the same reason orc and undead immunities were nerfed to dispels
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u/Dry-Chain-4418 7h ago
If it is multiplicative you only need about 34% crit chance for crit damage to exceed. Which several classes will be able to hit.
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u/One_Recognition385 6h ago
which goes back to what i said before.
Most classes has procs that are based on crit so that changes the scale.
but yeah either way i prefer hit to return for tauren it was a lot more fun.
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u/plants4life262 10h ago
Let’s assume 20% base chance to crit with a spec that does +100% crit damage (so 2x damage)
Additive: .2 \ (2+.02)*
Multiplicative: .2 2\1.02*Figures like 2% barely move the dial when you compare additive and multiplicative properties. But there is also no reason to assume it’s multiplicative. Every talent that has ever added crit damage has been done additive which is easily confirmed.
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u/aktivera 8h ago
The aura effect given by the racial listed on wowhead is already the same as the tbc helmet gem which is multiplicative. The wording also implies it's multiplicative. I don't see why people assume it's additive in the first place and I haven't seen anyone test it.
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u/HildartheDorf 9h ago
If it's 2% multiplicative it doesn't become better for 150% or 200% crits until after you would be crit capped with 2% chance. That's before interactions like Flurry etc.
100% more crit damage talents change 150%->200%, not 150%->300%.
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u/Dry-Chain-4418 7h ago
You are right the math was slightly off and assuming they are both equal in crit, but the talent is in exchange for 2% crit. here is the corrected table.
200% base crit damage
Crit damage racial Crit chance racial Equal at Additive +2% crit damage +2% crit chance 100% crit / 202% crit damage = 102% crit / 200% crit damage Multiplicative +2% crit damage +2% crit chance 50% crit / 204% crit damage = 52% crit / 200% crit damage 150% base crit damage
Crit damage racial Crit chance racial Equal at Additive +2% crit damage +2% crit chance 50% crit / 152% crit damage = 52% crit / 150% crit damage Multiplicative +2% crit damage +2% crit chance 33.33% crit / 153% crit damage = 35.33% crit / 150% crit damage
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u/Certain_Media_7361 10h ago
The crit isn’t amazing but 3% mount speed that stacks with other mount speed modifiers is phenomenal. Nobody can escape you in a pvp chase, you will have a big advantage farming nodes, and you will always be first to reach flags/cap in bgs. I might go tauren just for this passive specifically. You get permanent a carrot on a stick that stacks without sacrificing a trinket slot.
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u/Phurbie_Of_War 10h ago
I’m more annoyed they removed weapon requirements for the buff.
I feel like it really removes identity.
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u/Funkiestcat 8h ago
I feel like I’m taking crazy pills with these racials. I feel like they came out of the gate with these racials, gnome was busted, human was busted, nelf was busted, orc was busted, undead was busted…..I feel like that was intentional but they walked all the fun and impactful racials back after a bunch of community outcry, rather than buffing the small amount of races who had bad racials.
Like, it’s way more interesting to me to have EVERY race feel “overpowered” vs lame ass “2% crit damage and healing”. That is incredibly lame and boring. Like EVERY race should have something that it and only it can do that makes you go “holy shit look what my guy can do”.
And yeah, if it’s like that, of course there will be one that’s mathematically the best…..but there will ALWAYS be one that’s mathematically the best, if there’s a racial that does 0.1% more damage people will piss and moan about being FORCED to play that race regardless.
So like, either make them all feel powerful and impactful and good to press or literally just remove every single racial in the game. Perfect parity will literally never happen. Even if they remove combat throughput racials, people will start crying about how nelfs have an unfair advantage cuz of shadowmeld and now they’re FORCED to go nelf for PvP or whatever. It’s so incredibly lame. I would much much much rather have 8 races with 16 bonkers racials that this boring ass 2% crit damage or whatever.
Like we are playing an rpg right?? And I feel that’s genuinely what their intention was at first. Like to me it’s interesting to feel like your orc warrior plays different than a Tauren. Or fighting a human will need to approached differently than fighting a gnome.
But instead of anything cool, everyone threw a fit because they felt forced to go orc to turn their 55 parse into a 57. Like literally who cares?
If you really wanna min max (which is a legitimate and interesting and engaging way to play the game, no shade), then you’re gonna min max regardless of if we have interesting flavorful racials or lame boring ones.
Idk! And I play a troll so it isn’t like, personal bias speaking here. They just should have given trolls, dwarves and Tauren something equally as cool and good as the pre nerf eureka or orc racial.
Because now what we have is a literal race to the bottom, we’ve taken the hammer to most racials, but there’s always gonna be one that sticks out (rn it’s human), so that’ll of course be next. Then repeat until every race just has “deal 1% more damage”. YAWN
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u/Halfacentaur 10h ago
I’m vaguely paying attention to forever atm. But damn I read that racial way wrong. Holy fuck lol
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u/Kiwimann 8h ago
It's just not important to me. I'm not that sweaty. I think layering and dungeon xp tuning are more important expenditures of developer resources.
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u/door_of_doom 3h ago
Who called it a buff? I haven't seen a single soul, including blizzard, refer to it as a buff.
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u/nameisinappropriate 1h ago
OP is the reason they now write
Spell X damage increased to 50% (was 75%)
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u/plants4life262 2h ago
Yeah with the context clues and a little critical thought it was clear that it was meant to be a buff.
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u/door_of_doom 2h ago edited 2h ago
Tauren
Endurance: Now grants 2% increased critical damage and healing (was 1% hit chance).
What context clues indicate anything one way or the other? Are the context clues in the room with us right now?
For example, this is what a nerf looks like:
Orc
Blood Fury: Cooldown increased to 3 minutes (was 2 minutes).
You know it's a nerf because you look at the text and you say "That's a nerf."
It doesn't require context clues or a masters degree in interpretive dance to say "That is worse than what it was, therefore it was inteded to be worse"
Is there some kind of prose I'm missing that is intended to convey the author's secret intent to make what seems like a nerf actually a buff? Is there a narrator somewhere eerily foreshadowing "Little did the players know, what seemed to be misfourtune was actually intended to be a benefir! Much to the designer's dismay, what they interpreted to be a boon actually turned out to be their downfall."
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u/Buffalo4167 9h ago
It would be much better in a game like Diablo where you crit for 300 billions. In WoW classic it is just useless.
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u/Swimmingpuzzled5200 11h ago
half the people crying about racials wont have it noticeably affect them
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u/plants4life262 11h ago
Nobody is crying. People are going to discuss balance in a game that’s in beta. If you think otherwise you have unrealistic expectations.
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u/Aspect_Io 11h ago
And the other half are going to pull their hair out when
Human you cheap shot removes the stun,
Gnome you rooted or slowed removes them,
And the dwarf you blinded stoneforms the blind away,
There is definetly a problem with racials and its not PvE related
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u/tahlgeese 11h ago
Do you guys what the game to be easier or more difficult I just don't fucking get it.
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u/plants4life262 11h ago
It’s not really about the game being easier or more difficult, it’s about racial balance. Optimization is a big part of these types of games for many people and when the races are this far out of balance it makes optimizers feel bad about playing the race they’d really want to play.
Believe it or not, balance is important. And most people complaining about the balance would be just fine with removing all combat racials. That would make the game “harder” right? Let’s go.
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u/nekomata_58 11h ago
The tauren change was a massive nerf imo.