r/asoiaf • • 15h ago

MAIN (Spoilers Main) Weekly Q and A

4 Upvotes

Welcome to the Weekly Q & A! Feel free to ask any questions you may have about the world of ASOIAF. No need to be bashful. Book and show questions are welcome; please say in your question if you would prefer to focus on the BOOKS, the SHOW, or BOTH. And if you think you've got an answer to someone's question, feel free to lend them a hand!

Looking for Weekly Q&A posts from the past? Browse our Weekly Q&A archive! (currently no longer being archived, but this link will remain)


r/asoiaf • • 2d ago

MAIN (Spoilers Main) Moonboy's Motley Monday

2 Upvotes

As you may know, we have a policy against silly posts/memes/etc. Moonboy's Motley Monday is the grand exception: bring me your memes, your puns, your blatant shitposts.

This is still r/asoiaf, so do keep it as civil as possible.

If you have any clever ideas for weekly themes, shoot them to the modmail!

Looking for Moonboy's Motley Monday posts from the past? Browse our Moonboy's Motley Monday archive! (our old archive is here)


r/asoiaf • • 6h ago

PUBLISHED Which character's "mantra" is the most destructive? [Spoilers Published]

116 Upvotes

"Wherever whores go"

"Kill the boy"

"Floppy ears"

"Joffrey, Cersei, Raff the Sweetling, Walder Frey, Ilyn Peyne, the Hound"

"...and Moon Boy for all I know"

I'm not talking about the repetition being annoying. I just want to know whose obsessive fixation on certain words do you find the most unwise

edit: What I find most interesting is the spectrum of sources that put these words in POVs' heads and their intentions, ranging from "Kill the boy" all the way to "Reek, Reek it rhymes with Weak"


r/asoiaf • • 14h ago

ADWD [Spoilers ADWD] I finally understand how you guys became so unhinged

392 Upvotes

I just finished ADWD. It took around 4 months for me to finish the entire ASOIAF series.

I really like Feast for what it was. Jaime and Brienne had super fun chapters. My favorite part was everything surrounding the siege of Riverrun. Cersei imploding in King's Landing was also a fun read.

But then ADWD happens, and it feels like a book with a lot of setup without a proper payoff. Of course, it's not all setup; some characters have strong arcs. I like Jon's controversial rule as Lord Commander and Theon's arc, which was actually my favorite of the book. But a lot of filler chapters, and Tyrion and Dany, who I normally really like, became so boring to me. Winterfell was super interesting, but so much of the runtime is spent doing random BS in Essos.

And then it ends without a single one of the big battles. We don't see Stannis meeting Roose in the field or Barristan charging on the Yunkai. TF is Euron even doing? A lot of setup for close to zero payoff, and then the 15-year wait haha. I finally understand you guys.


r/asoiaf • • 5h ago

MAIN Which Targaryens among all eras would have dared to try claim a Balerion in his prime if they had the chance? And which ones do you think would have been accepted by him? (spoilers main) Spoiler

Post image
72 Upvotes

r/asoiaf • • 2h ago

MAIN Theory: Tormund's member isn't actually big (Spoilers: Main)

37 Upvotes

I think GRRM is foreshadowing at a massive twist in TWOW, Tormund hasn't been honest about the size of his member. He says its big enough to frighten any woman, but what if he's lying? This would be a massive turning point in Tormund's character arc. I have the evidence:

"Might be all a skin o' lies." Tormund scratched under his beard. "If I had me a nice goose quill and a pot o' maester's ink, I could write down that me member was long and thick as me arm, wouldn't make it so."

I believe this is GRRM foreshadowing this revelation, which will be revealed in TWOW when Melisandre is reviving Jon Snow at the Nightfort. The magic only works with the blood of a "king" AKA dude with a huge one. When Mel demands Tormund leech his dick for Jon, he's forced to admit the shocking truth.


r/asoiaf • • 10h ago

PUBLISHED Which of Jaehaerys's brothers is Barristan Selmy talking about in ASOS? (Spoilers Published)

85 Upvotes

"Not now," she agreed. "One day. One day you must tell me all. The good and the bad. There is some good to be said of my father, surely?"

"There is, Your Grace. Of him, and those who came before him. Your grandfather Jaehaerys and his brother, their father Aegon, your mother . . . and Rhaegar. Him most of all." - Daenerys VI, A Storm of Swords

Curiously, Barristan only mentions one brother even though Jaehaerys had two, Duncan and Daeron.

Cat does think of Jenny and Duncan when she passes through Oldstones so we know for a fact Duncan was invented already in ASOS.

At first, I was thinking it's most likely Daeron Barristan thinks of since he was a warrior who died quelling a rebellion while Duncan the Small was a useless guy who started another rebellion. But then this whole passage is about the "good and bad" of the family which still includes Duncan and his vices. Or it's possible Barristan just doesn't think Duncan is worth talking about.


r/asoiaf • • 6h ago

MAIN Why Didnt Aegon the conquerer Give celtigars any power [Spoilers MAIN]

32 Upvotes

The conquerer why didnt give celtigars any position of power
Orys just mere warior get Storms End
Velaryons are almost a branch of Targaryens
Master at arms of Dragonstone get harrenhal
But celtigars are first to support Aegon but didnt get any realm power position or power no royal marriages no land no big prize
I think they at least deserve the Lannisport


r/asoiaf • • 9h ago

(Spoilers Published) One of the cruelest patterns in ASOIAF is that the people who know the truth are the least likely to be believed Spoiler

42 Upvotes

I've been rereading AGOT, and Arya overhearing Varys and Illyrio beneath the Red Keep made me notice something about how George handles information.

Arya has stumbled into an actual conspiracy. She hears two men discussing the political situation, their plans, and the possibility of war. It's information Ned would desperately want.

But she's a frightened little girl who doesn't know who she's listening to, doesn't understand half the political references, and has just been wandering around places she isn't supposed to be.

By the time she tries to explain it to Ned, it sounds like the sort of confused adventure story a child might invent.

And the frustrating thing is that neither of them is behaving particularly irrationally.

Now think about how the entire series begins.

Gared returns from beyond the Wall terrified enough to abandon the Night's Watch. The reader has just witnessed something supernatural and horrifying in the prologue. Ned has witnessed none of it.

As far as he's concerned, he's dealing with a deserter.

The reader knows there's a real threat. Ned has no good way of knowing that. His decision makes perfect sense within the information available to him.

Then you get people like Osha, whose warnings about what is happening beyond the Wall come from a wildling and prisoner rather than someone the northern nobility would naturally regard as an authority.

And later Sam, who actually kills an Other with dragonglass. Imagine trying to convince the great lords of Westeros that an awkward young man from the Night's Watch has discovered a way to kill an ancient supernatural enemy while they're busy fighting over castles.

What interests me is that George doesn't just write situations where important information is hidden.

He repeatedly puts important information in the hands of people who lack the status, credibility, vocabulary, or opportunity to make anyone act on it.

A deserter. A child. A wildling. A brother of the Night's Watch whom even his own father considered worthless.

We as readers can connect the information because we get to inhabit these people's perspectives. Almost nobody inside the story has that luxury.

It also makes me wonder how many other characters we've dismissed as foolish or unreliable because we're seeing them through someone else's eyes.

I don't think every ignored warning in the books is supposed to be correct, obviously. And I wouldn't argue that Ned should have magically figured out what happened beyond the Wall.

But there seems to be a recurring tragedy here: knowing something important and being capable of making other people believe it are two completely different things.

What's the best example of this in the series? A moment where somebody had genuinely useful information, but circumstances made it almost impossible for anyone to take them seriously?


r/asoiaf • • 2h ago

EXTENDED [Spoilers EXTENDED] Why didn't Edmure escape with the Blackfish while surrendering Riverrun?

8 Upvotes

Towards the end of AFFC, we learn that Jaime sends Edmure inside Riverrun, and then Edmure takes a whole day to surrender the castle, before which the Blackfish as escaped by swimming across the river floating quietly downstream. Jaime doesn't find out the Blackfish is missing till the next morning after the castle gates are opened. If one man could escape, why not two? That couldn't be too difficult, if an old man was able to manage it. Also, before sending him into Riverrun, Jaime leaves Edmure alone with the singer Tom of Sevenstreams for a while, and there are popular fan theories that Tom is an agent working for the BWB. Maybe he told Edmure about some rescue plans?

And then Edmure went inside Riverrun and told the Blackfish about it, and since they took so long to strike the Direwolf banners and open the gates, they both could have escaped together? Did both of them decide that it was important for their plan for Edmure to assume his captivity for now, but the Blackfish must escape to gather his forces with the BWB, or even ride to the Vale to obtain help from the Vale lords?


r/asoiaf • • 13h ago

EXTENDED A True Knight Always Finishes a Story (Spoilers Extended)

39 Upvotes

Background

I thoroughly enjoyed (as I am sure most did) Season 1 of A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms. In the season finale, Dunk's mentor, Ser Arlyn of Pennytree states that "a true knight always finishes a story" during a flashback regarding the origin of Pennytree where he appears to die then awakens to finish it. This scene is regarded by many as a meta-joke regarding the ASOIAF series and GRRM.

If interested: A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms: Anything/Everything Dunk & Egg

Other Similar Meta Jokes/References

There are plenty of similar potential Meta jokes/references in the series:

  • GRRM's Writing Process/Plan for the Series

The plan—”
“Which plan?” said Tristan Rivers. “The fat man’s plan? The one that changes every time the moon turns? First Viserys Targaryen was to join us with fifty thousand Dothraki screamers at his back. Then the Beggar King was dead, and it was to be the sister, a pliable young child queen who was on her way to Pentos with three new-hatched dragons. Instead the girl turns up on Slaver’s Bay and leaves a string of burning cities in her wake, and the fat man decides we should meet her by Volantis. Now that plan is in ruins as well. -ADWD, The Lost Lord

  • The Five Year Gap

"You would not believe half of what is happening in King's Landing, sweetling. Cersei stumbles from one idiocy to the next, helped along by her council of the deaf, the dim, and the blind. I always anticipated that she would beggar the realm and destroy herself, but I never expected she would do it quite so fast. It is quite vexing. I had hoped to have four or five quiet years to plant some seeds and allow some fruits to ripen, but now . . . it is a good thing that I thrive on chaos. What little peace and order the five kings left us will not long survive the three queens, I fear." -AFFC, Alayne II

  • The Meereenese Knot

While the show had a prostitute who could perform the "Meereenese Knot", there are potential other homages to it as well with Barristan (who is the character GRRM used to solve it):

I actually had a very good day today, writing about a character who wasn't originally supposed to be a POV, but has turned out to be sharpest sword I've got for slicing through the Meereenese knot. -SSM, August: 4 Aug 2010

and:

the knight asked himself … but it was easier to pose that question than to answer it. I have no skill at unraveling such knots. -ADWD, The Discarded Knight

and mentioning what he likely wishes he could have done to it:

Knots and tangles, Jaime thought, wishing he could cut through all of it with one swift stroke of his sword. -ADWD, Jaime I

TLDR: Consider it copium or whatever you want, but the comment "A true knight always finishes a story" by Ser Arlan during the finale of Season I of A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, fits in with other meta comments in the series.


r/asoiaf • • 5h ago

EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) What unanswered questions that you want to know about the Targaryen Family

5 Upvotes

So recently, I have been thinking about how there are a lot of unanswered questions about the Targaryen Family and this made me think about doing a post of what mystery about the Targaryens that you want to know about. Here are couple of the questions I have about the Targaryen family.

What made Duncan Targaryen specifically love about Jenny so much that he would give up his rights as heir to the throne so that he can marry her because it’s never told to us why did he loved Jenny.

How and when did Daenaera Velaryon, Mariah Martell, Aelinor Penrose, Shaera Targaryen, and Betha Blackwood die as they are the only queens that we don’t have any explicit information of how they die and when did it happen.

Was Baela already dead when Alyn was sleeping with Eleana or was she still alive during that time.( although Elaena wishing she could marry Alyn implies she was dead but it’s still not confirmed).

Why was Baelor The Blessed was so religious because no reason was ever given.

How did Aelora accidentally killed Aelor and when did they marry each other because it is not confirmed if they marry each before or after 209 AC.

Did Daenora remarried after Aerion died and if so, who did she marry and did she had any more kids in this marriage.

How did Aegon V meet Betha.

Why was Aelora attacked by The Rat, The Hawk, and The Pig as we are never told what was their motive of doing this nor why was she left unguarded as the heir to the throne.

Why was Gaemon called the Glorious.

What happened to Vaella and Maegor (Son of Aerion).

What was the dynamic and relationship that Maekar’s children had with Baelor and Rhaegel’s children as not much information have been revealed about this topic.

When and how did Daeron the Drunken’s wife Kiera of Tyrosh die and when did they marry because similarly to Aelor and Aelora, we don’t know when exactly did they marry each other.

There are more questions that I have but these are just some of my questions about the Targaryens. What mysteries would you like to know the answer to Regarding the Targaryen Family.


r/asoiaf • • 12h ago

Reading Segments for asoiaf book club (Spoilers Published)

Post image
27 Upvotes

I would like to read a song of ice and fire as a smal book club with my sister. Because I have never organised something like that and it's been a while since I have read the books myself, I would like to know if anyone on this sub has done something like this before and could suggest something in regards to reading segments.

What chapters work well together and what would be good stopping points that leave us enouth to talk about?

While I have read the books before, it would be the first time for my sister who has only ever seen the show and whom I tried to talk into giving the superior written version a shot for years at this point

We are starting from the german version of book one (see picture). The german release has the english books split into two smaler books each, but as far as I know the order of the chapters is the same with only page numbers being different on account of the translations.

Any suggestions and general advice about doing something like this would be appreciated


r/asoiaf • • 1h ago

MAIN [Spoilers Main] Some ways I would suggest to improve AFFC and ADWD overall as to make TWOW easier to write.

• Upvotes

Unlike many of you, I believe that GRRM is actually writing TWOW. However as he says it's a tough book to write and a lot or the reasons for it lie in AFFC and ADWD. Lemme get some things clear first, when I suggest changes, it would not involve - removing Brienne's chapters, removing the Greyjoy or Martell plotline or deleting all of Essos from ADWD.

THIS IS A HYPOTHETICAL!!!!!!

These are the points to keep in consideration before the 4 battles.

  1. Sansa should have 5 more chapters in AFFC. By removing these chapters from AFFC what ultimately happens is that all of her Vale arc and becoming competent at scheming gets shifted to TWOW which in turn just increases the length of that book. I certainly think she would not be as competent as she would if the 5 year gap were executed but she would understand things and Littlefinger better.

  2. Arya should be shifted completely to ADWD. Her arc with the Faceless Men has another objective imo apart from making her a cool rogue killer (which was never GRRM's motive btw, he does not celebrate revenge and children becoming assassins) and that is emphasizing the theme of rejection of immortality and importance of death. Her arc in Braavos could be 10-12 chapters long and be split across ADWD and TWOW. Same as Sansa here, reducing the number of Arya chapters in AFFC and ADWD ultimately increases the chapter count of TWOW. If she has 4 more chapters in TWOW she could finally deal with Lady Stoneheart and take Winterfell alongside Jon (I believe that theory, this was by Michael Talks about Stuff on YouTube).

  3. Bran... Many of you hate him but I don't so I am quite ambitious about him. Same here. He needs at least 12 chapters to be good at whatever Bloodraven wants him to be good at or to even uncover the schemes of Bloodraven and the COTF. Split them evenly, 6 and 6 across ADWD and TWOW. And I would suggest another idea. Give Meera Reed a bigger role here, she could do some of the uncovering work and be a cool non POV character as well.

  4. By the end of ADWD, we need Davos to be back from Skagos with Rickon and Osha. Bro just vanishes before half of the book is over.

  5. Cersei, Jaime, Brienne - no changes.

  6. Jon - no changes but we need to see the civil war like chaos at Castle Black after his death and hence I suggest 3 more Melissandre chapters. I loved her only POV chapter and she certainly gives us more of a hint into the fire side of magic apart from Daenerys.

  7. Daenerys needs more chapters in ADWD. Her main arc is deciding if she could rule. We need a conclusion to that so we can focus completely on her invasion in TWOW. And what to do in these new chapters - her acquisition of the Dosh Khaleen and the Dothraki, returning to Meereen, dealing with the aftermath of the Battle of Fire and setting sail to Volantis. We can also eatablish Daenerys, the Dosh Khaleen and the Dothraki as a type of Paul Atreides - Bene Gesserit - Fremen type thing. The seeds are there. If we have even one influential Dosh Khaleen who acts as a sort of religious propaganda type thing and hold up Daenerys as a religious figure, we can partiallh solve the issue of Daenerys' side characters being less interesting. We honestly could do the same with Daario. Daario is quite an asshole and she just fucks him in hot blood. Make him a more negative influence apart from being a fuckboy. Something similar to the show will happen here, she will leave him at Meereen. But it would be an element that influences her arc more - either she gives into his influence or rejects it.

  8. I would say another thing - make Meereen more interesting throughout the 10 chapters Daenerys has in the original ADWD. Let's see King's Landing for an example, we have many interesting factions there - Cersei's camp, the Tyrells, Varys and Littlefinger's spies, etc. We already have 2 interesting factions in Meereen (although they're interesting, not as much as King's Landing) - the Green Grace and Skahaaz. Barristan is trapped between them. Make them more relevant through extra Barristan and Tyrion chapters. But what about the post-Meereen story?? Do we leave them at Meereen?? Nope. Galazza Galare and Skahaaz and their camps move to Volantis and then Westeros and maybe Pentos with Daenerys. Also give the Ghoiscari some bloody prophecy or magic. All of Essos has prophetic and magical elements from Vaes Dothrak to Asshai. But Ghiscar doesn't. Change that.

  9. Victarion - delete that mf. We don't need his POV. Seeing him through Tyrion and Barristan is enough. And what about Moqorro?? Yeahh Moqorro is not there for the great dumb stump, he's there for the dragon queen like all others. Victarion is only his vassal to her.

  10. Quentyn - Delete his first three chapters. Uhh I would have kept his Dragontamer chapter (which is a good chapter) as a prologue POV but Varamyr Sixskins is rather a better choice and that would fuck with the structure of the book, seeing him die first and then meet Daenerys and get rejected by her. So I suggest something like the Aerys Oakheart chapter.

  11. Tyrion's chapters need hard compression. Tyrion I-VI remain the same. Tyrion VII and Tyrion VIII become a single compressed chapter. Tyrion IX and Tyrion X become another single compressed chapter. Same goes for Tyrion XI and Tyrion XII. On a side note, I would keep Barristan's role the same.

  12. WILDCARD - Add Willas Tyrell as a POV in AFFC. Please I need more Olenna. And Willas also suits GRRM's theme of outcasts shaping important events. Then we take him to Oldtown, leaving Olenna at Highgarden. Hence we can see what Euron is doing and also find out what Leyton and Malora are doing in the Hightower. I would kinda want him to survive till the end of the story.

  13. Areo Hotah's important chapters are given to Arianne Martell. The stuff with Obara can happen off stage. If it includes important reveals about the Daynes, the Tower of Joy, Dawn or edgelord supreme Darkstar, make Obara the POV. Then she can take another interesting route to Oldtown amidst the Battle of Blood like she wanted to. She has more interesting of a personality than Areo despite npt being a POV. We don't need Areo. Simple.

  14. Asha Greyjoy is an interesting character. I'd keep her chapters the same. Maybe establish more of her idea of what the Iron Islands should be or establish more lore about the Iron Islands.

  15. Aeron chapters will stay the same and his goated preview chapter in TWOW will be included into ADWD.

  16. Arianne Martell's chapters will be the remnants of Areo's chapters + her chapters leading upto meeting fAegon.

  17. Jon Connington - no changes.

  18. Samwell I, Samwell II get compressed into one chapter. Samwell III is majorly deleted except the important parts and is combined with the untouched Samwell IV. Samwell V stays untouched. Also make his growth from a coward more accelerated. It kinda slows down in AFFC after ASOS. So I'd change that.

Now we get into the 4 battles. Its quite a flaw that the last two books of ASOIAF don't have a climax at all. We need them for ADWD to feel complete. So let's get into them. They'd need a maximum of 25 more chapters.

  1. Battle of Fire - 6 chapters through Barristan and Tyrion. Establishes Meereenese factions of Galazza Galare and Skahaaz mo Kandaq. Some focus on Hizdahr. Along with this one extra chapter from Daenerys to deal with the aftermath of Rhaegal and Viseriob escaping, meeting Tyrion, dealing with Victarion and his Dragonbinder shit and finally off to Westeros.

  2. Battle of Ice - 4 chapters - more Asha and Theon chapters. We need eyes on Stannis too. We will end off here with Stannis marching towards Winterfell.

  3. Battle of Steel - 4 chapters - 2 from Jon Connington and 2 from Arianne Martell. Establishing fAegon more and maybe Arianne seducing fAegon. Probably Mace dies here and Randall Tarly betrays him.

  4. Battle of Blood - 6 chapters from Samwell, Willas, maybe Obara and most importantly Aeron. Aeron dies here maybe. We may get to see Euron ride a dragon. Massive sacrifices to wake krakens. Finally Euron sets off to King's Landing.

My final observations:-

  1. A lot of the issues I think that occur in TWOW are because characters such as Sansa, Arya, Bran, etc. do not have a definitely arc in AFFC and ADWD. If we keep pushing them into TWOW, it creates a huge load on George himself.

  2. What happens in TWOW?? - the trials of the queens | Cersei fleeing King's Landing to Casterly Rock or maybe Euron's camp | Jaime, Brienne, Lady Stoneheart and the Riverlands | Part 2 of each, Sansa's arc in AFFC and Arya and Bran's arcs in ADWD | Daenerys' invasion | Jon's resurrection | Stannis' arc concludes | Starks regroup at Winterfell | fAegon, Euron, Cersei and Daenerys's camps collide at King's Landing | the fate of House Tyrell is determined | Greyjoys and Martells are hard to predict + anything that may be left.

  3. In our real world scenario, TWOW would need to be 2.5 times tge size of ASOS to deliver a satisfactory conclusion. I am shifting 0.75 out of that 2.5 to AFFC and ADWD. That way the books feel more structured and hypothetical GRRM won't have to worry as much about finishing each storyline in one book. Doing too much at once often causes stress.


r/asoiaf • • 7h ago

MAIN (Spoilers Main) The early Targaryens and the Anglo-Saxon influences.

7 Upvotes

We all know much of Westeros is inspired by real English History and In Particular the Targaryens take a lot of Inspiration from the Plantagenet Dynasty. But I think many of the Early Targaryens actually have more in common with the Anglo-Saxon Kings of a Unified England than they do the Normans or Plantagenets.

Now note: No Targaryen has A One-to-one real life equivalent however Many share various similarities with Pre-Norman Kings and I want give some examples:

Aegon the Conqueror: Athelstan

I think most People would Equate Aegon I with William the Conqueror, However I believe that’s incorrect and Aegon’s much more similar to Athelstan the first King of a truly united England.

For one Starting out Aegon was in a much better position than William was pre-conquest. Aegon was the uncontested heir of his Father, ruling during a time when there were many independent Kingdoms that all hated each other. Oh and He had Dragons.

Meanwhile William was the Bastard son of the Previous Duke of Normandy and Came into his rule as a child, having to fight off Rebellions, assassination attempts, Scheming Nobles all to keep Normandy. And when he did conquer England He Fought a United Kingdom with one King.

Athelstan in the meantime while not having dragons was still the Eldest Son and mostly uncontested Heir of His father Edward the Elder (There was an attempt to make a younger Brother King but not much came from it) and was in a very strong position that he inherited from his Fathers conquest.

William the Conqueror after his conquest at first tried to present himself as a continuation of the old Anglo-Saxon Kings, but Quickly changed his mind and uprooted most of the Government and Society.

Aegon and Athelstan by contrast ruled based on Previous laws and generally presented themselves as acting in the Native Societal framework.

Both Did their conquest to fulfill a “Dream” of sorts. (Aegon’s Dream, and Alfred the Great’s Vision of England)

Both their conquests are similar: Forcing various Kings’s submission, pushing out the Vikings (or Viking equivalent) From the Mainland. And honestly the Field of Fire makes me think of bananburgh (both cemented their respective Kings as The power in the land).

But Aegon’s not the only Targaryen that is like an Anglo-Saxon.

Aenys: Edmund I

Not as powerful as their predecessor and Lost much of their predecessors conquests only for it come together in the end.

Maegor I: Eadred

Succeeded their Older Brothers instead of said Brothers sons. Manage to end resistance to Family’s rule, succeeded by nephews.

Aegon the uncrowned: Eadwig

Passed over in favor of an uncle, died young, was succeeded by Younger brother.

Jaehaerys I: Edgar the Peaceful

Brought the Kingdom together after a years of chaos and warfare. Reigned during peaceful times in the high point of their dynasties. Made major secular and religious reforms that truly united the Kingdoms forged by their predecessors. Had unclear successions

Now that’s where most of the similarities end (with one exception I’ll mention in a bit). There are others that are close (Athelred the Unready and Viserys I for example) but after Jaehaerys none come close to being direct Parallels except one

Baelor the Blessed: Edward the Confessor

Both were very religious Kings known for their Piety and Faith. Both being revered in their respective faiths (Baelor is remembered well in the Faith and Edward was sainted) Both were married but never had any children or even consummated said Marriage. Both were succeeded by Kings who reigned for One year and their reigns saw the start of a Massive war of Succession that would fundamentally change the landscape of the realm.

Note that this was all for fun and something I just thought of. Also I’m not a professional historian nor do I know everything about Asiof, I’m just a fan of both so if I get anything wrong let me know.

This was just my excuse to talk about two of my favorite subjects. If you have any other examples or anything interesting to share, let me know!


r/asoiaf • • 9h ago

MAIN (Spoilers Main) How would you rank the prologues/epilogues?

6 Upvotes

Most people agree that the prologues and epilogues are some of the best chapters, yet if you ask 100 fans which ones are their most and least favorite, you'll get 100 different answers. It's fascinating how little consensus there is. I'm curious how you guys would rank them!

For me:

  1. ADWD Epilogue - Kevan Lannister. The plot finally kicking it back into high gear after two fairly meandering books. The Small Council scenes are always great, and it's so cool seeing Kevan doing his thing. Varys reappearing after all this time, and completely shaking shit up. I think ADWD would have a noticeably poorer reception if it didn't have this banger of an epilogue negating a lot of the flaws with the book.
  2. ADWD Prologue - Varamyr Sixskins. Incredible horror writing. When I first read ADWD, I remember worrying that the prologue was just gonna be a bunch of exposition about warging. But then it turns into pure horror, with one of the most chilling lines in the series to close it off. Varamyr's perspective is so interesting, like Chett he's just a complete piece of shit. George is so good with these unreliable narrator perspectives. And reminding us of the Free Folk, how vibrant their culture is, and how fucked they are, is really well-placed after AFFC.
  3. AGOT Prologue - Will. Started everything. Gave Waymar an entire arc. Established the ultimate foe of the entire story in a way that's super compelling. Part of me feels like maybe every prologue and epilogue should have just caught us up on the latest goings with the Others, they've appeared so few times in the story.
  4. ASOS Epilogue - Merrett Frey. Lady Stoneheart is amazing, but the chapter is really long and most of it is just this middle aged guy complaining about woe is him. It goes on a bit too long for my liking, and is kinda repetitive. The super strong ending makes up for a lot, but as a chapter it's still like 75% filler.
  5. ASOS Prologue - Chett. Just like Varamyr, I really enjoy these unreliable narrators. Chett is such a piece of shit, and George does a great job capturing those incel vibes. We've all come across weird guys on twitter who talk about women exactly how Chett does. His hilariously harebrained scheme which fails to account for the possibility of snowfall beyond the wall is so funny, and the chapter contains some really endearing Glup Shittos. Small Paul is great. Seeing Sam through the eyes of someone who isn't Jon is cool. And, of course, the ending is terrifying.
  6. ACOK Prologue - Maester Cressen. I want to like this chapter so bad, it introduces so many important characters and plot points. But it feels like George write the prologue before he finished developing Stannis's characterization. In the prologue of ACOK, he comes across as a whiny petulant manchild. The Stannis we see in the rest of the books really doesn't seem like the guy who'd humiliate Cressen by making him wear a jester's hat as a joke. The chapter does a lot of work establishing plot, but it really could have done with a re-write before being published. It feels pretty disjointed from later portrayals of these characters.
  7. AFFC Prologue - Pate. Seeing the news about Dany's dragon finally reach Westeros is cool, and the introduction of Marwyn and glass candles is interesting (Though it'd hit much harder of these plot points ended up being, y'know, more consequential) but the chapter is so long and Pate is just a really uninteresting POV. Pages upon pages of college frat guys making very surface level banter at each other just isn't super gripping. Aside from Alleras, the rest of the gang is pretty uninteresting. When was the last time you thought about Mollander or Roone or Armen? The exposition about the Citadel is mostly repeated in later Sam chapters, and as of ADWD hasn't ended up actually mattering to the larger plotlines. Just a pretty boring, extremely exposition-heavy, read imo

r/asoiaf • • 11h ago

EXTENDED [Spoilers EXTENDED] How will the story play out of Sansa and Arya were on a boat out of kings landing.

4 Upvotes

Let's say during the chaos of Ned's arrest for treason that Tomard aka Fat tom wasn't in the throne room with Ned and somehow during the chaos of Ned's arrest manages to escape kings landing on a ship with Arya and Sansa.

Now Ned doesn't know this as since they went by ship they will be harder to track down. Ned still confesses to treason for the sake of his kids, Cersai still pretends to have them and sends a letter to Robb demanding he swear fealty to Joffery.

Given that they are on a boat it takes some time for them to travel to dragonstone (To deliver Ned's Letter to Stannis) and then white habour.

So for a while no one knows that they are alive for now, so Robb still marches out to kings landing and Catlyn meets with him.

Let's say by the time they are in White habour and under the protection of house Manderly and word finally gets to Robb and Catlyn either by Raven or Lord Manderly sending Tomard to tell Robb of Ned's Letter to Stannis. Jamie has already been captured after the (Battle in the Whispering Wood).

Joffery still executes Ned cause i don't see how/why he won't do that, but at least by now Catlyn knows her kids are safe.

So what happens from here?

  • Imo Catlyn doesn't have any reason to stay with Robb's host as the only reason she stays was to advocate for her kids and try to get them back. But at what point does she leave, maybe immediately after she gets the letter or after meeting with Stannis and Renly
  • The Lannisters are in a worse position as they don't have any hostages since the idiot Joffery Just executed Ned (I don't see a scenerio where he isn't this stupid).
  • Does Robb still get declared king, given that Ned voices support for Stannis with the letter (does Robb hide it from his men and lets them declare him King). If not then they Join forces
  • What about him sending Theon to Pyke and the shitstorm that caused does he make the same mistake i don't see any reason since Stannis will have a reasonable fleet but Catlyn might not be there to try to advice him against it.
  • With the North and Riverlanders supporting Stannis i assume the rest of the storm lords will switch sides without Renly having to die, and if he does by Stannis shadow baby Brianne might get blamed if Catlyn isn't meeting with him to vouch for her

There are a whole more things that will happen i can't fit here, so what other cascading things will happen


r/asoiaf • • 1d ago

PUBLISHED Does Littlefinger want Sansa to be his wife or his daughter? (Spoilers Published)

201 Upvotes

r/asoiaf • • 9h ago

MAIN In my humble opinion, GRRM could still utilize a five-year gap if he wants [Spoilers Main]

3 Upvotes

The winter has to last a long time, given how long the summer was, and as the abomination's eighth season proved, defeating the Others with one climactic battle would be a huge letdown. It should very much be a bitter campaign of survival across years, with humans still being divided and thus resisting the Others' advances in fractured factions. Plus most of the protagonists in the story are still too young to take genuine leadership roles in the story.

It might be possible to slip the five-year gap between The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring. Obviously there are certain storylines which have to be put on ice (pun intended), but I believe in GRRM to find a way to make it work. We could have the characters reflecting on the journeys they've taken, hinting at the horrors they've endured, like Beren in The Silmarillion. Plus it would allow GRRM to establish just how devastating those five years have been since the Others began the second Long Night.


r/asoiaf • • 18h ago

PUBLISHED (SPOILERS PUBLISHED) the known world?

11 Upvotes

What is the best, most informative and easy to read map of the known world? I’m nearing the end of The World of Ice and Fire, and it’s so cool and interesting but there is so much information and im having an overloading error trying to remember everything.


r/asoiaf • • 1d ago

EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) What is GRRM not stuck on?

113 Upvotes

Okay, so there's a post titled What is G.R.R.M stuck on? so I thought let's have fun and do one better: What plotlines that Martin is not stuck on that y'all believe are the easiest for him to write?


r/asoiaf • • 1d ago

EXTENDED [Spoilers Extended] What is G.R.R.M stuck on?

328 Upvotes

Based on Martin's updates that he has about 1000 manuscript pages, I imagine that he has successfully written the following:

  1. The battle of Mereen and its Aftermath

  2. Whatever happens to Dany in the Dothraki Sea

  3. The battle of Winterfell

  4. The Aftermath of the Mutiny at Castle Black + Jon Snow's fate

  5. The Trial of Cersei and Margaery

  6. The taking of Storm's End by Young Griff's forces

So I was wondering what is he stuck on? My gut feeling is that the plot line in the east is too complex and getting the characters to Westeros with the proper dynamics and character growth. Has GRRM mentioned something to hint in any direction?

Sorry for typos (Writing on my phone) and sorry if this is a repeat post, I haven't seen anything exactly like this.


r/asoiaf • • 1d ago

(Spoilers Extended) Sneak Peak: My Predictions For The Winds Of Winter NSFW Spoiler

48 Upvotes

INTRODUCTION

For the past 15 years, the fandom has been banging its head against the wall speculating and theorizing on what a completed TWOW manuscript would look like. We've had some sane theories, some insane theories, some clever theories, some dumb theories, the whole gamut of the good, the bad, and the weird. We've had a number of these outlines over the years, hell Preston Jacobs has even wrote his own fanfic finishing WINDS himself like some sort of autistic Thanos. Its good and the prose is more GRRM than GRRM but it relies on too much of PJ's wacky theories instead of what we actually know about TWOW (which I actually compiled in this post here.)

So to add some much needed fun in this subreddit, I decided to through my hat in the ring and make my own outline that I hope will satisfy everyone. Its about 90-120 chapters, and since I don't wish to rush it since this is a rather delicate AND complicated affair and I am currently finishing college its probably going to take as long as the actual THE WINDS OF WINTER.

A few ground rules first.

  1. It must follow the rules of the World of Ice and Fire and what little has been revealed in THE WINDS OF WINTER sample chapters.
  2. It has to answer and complete all the remaining plot threads leading up to A DREAM OF SPRING.
  3. The story must be sufficiently dark in tone with a emphasis on magic.
  4. Every theory must be rational and realistic with the purpose of getting most characters to reunite, with the very end of the story being the fall of the Wall and the Others marching south.
  5. Since it is impossible to predict where GRRM's gardening style will take him in terms of worldbuilding, some chapters might be light on information yet researched enough on where GRRM's interest lies with mandatory plot progression.

I am more than willing to take constructive criticism and fan advice until I finish it but place may the seven save us, don't bombard the comment section with the same "WINDS ISN'T COMING OUT" Crap. I don't know when or if WINDS is coming out, you don't know that answer either, and that is not the purpose of this post. Let's just have some good old fashioned fun okay?

  1. Prologue: Ser Forely Prestor is escorting the Westerlings and Tullys to the Golden Tooth. House Spicer was entirely involved in the Red Wedding while the Westerings weren't. The BwB attack Ser Forely and his men. However Edmure and Roslyn Tully are feathered by Arrows in the process. Lady Stoneheart, grieving for her brother, has the entire family hang despite their loyalty. This sets the tone for the rest of the novel.
  2. Victarion I: Victarion is in rendezvous with the Slaver Fleet. Despite being dumb as a stump, he actually shows some tactical brilliance by having Wulf One-Ear lead a sneak attack on the besieging fleet via hiding below decks in the captured ships and then massacring the slavers, liberating the slaves, and seizing the ships. Think the Trojan Horse but with nautical vessels. Victarion offers three thralls rewards and the false promise of life if they blow Dragonbinder. Victarion is getting all obsessed with the thing like Gollum. When Moqqoro leaves his cabin, Victarion proceeds to vaginally fist the Dusky Woman but refuses to sleep with her before the battle. Coming topside, he reveals his plan to his crew and gives a badass speech as he orders the drums to start beating as they race to Meereen.
  3. Baristan I: With corpses being volleyed into Meereen by Trebuchets, Ser Barristan Selmy is panicking. While he could have withstood the siege, the Pale Mare racing through the city is another matter. Ser Barristan doesn’t know the plague is already in the city and believes in humor theory. Ser Barristan takes stock of his option to attack the Slavers and realizes that he has been dealt a bad hand: His allies are sellswords and pit fighters he doesn’t trust, the slavers have a numerical advantage and if his gambit to bribe the Tattered Prince into freeing their hostages doesn’t work, they are screwed before they even begin. Bold to the last, Ser Barristan plans the attack regardless and when the beacon above the Great Pyramid is set alight, decides to sound the attack.
  4. Theon I: Theon is in chains while King Stannis and Tycho Nestoris conclude a deal which Stannis signs in his own blood, unprompted. It’s revealed in a flashback that Jeyne and Theon were rescued by Crowfood Umber and his green boys, having lured Aenys Frey to his death in a pit trap, leaving the idiotic Ser Hosteen Frey in charge. Theon is frightened of Ramsay but Stannis is contemptuous. Stannis interrogates a maester into revealing he sent the Boltons a map, then sends Ser Justin Massey on a mission to Braavos to hire sellswords, sending Jeyne Poole to Castle Black as a reward for warning him. Stannis reveals to the Karstarks that he knows they are traitors with the promise that they may choose how they die for treason. Stannis questions Theon further, happy that Roose Bolton has made a mistake by sending a portion of his men out into what he implies is a trap. Theon is aghast and asks what advantage Stannis has with the ground, to which he responds that he has no natural defenses “yet”. Theon has a flashback where he breaks down in Asha’s arms, telling her everything including possibly that Bran and Rickon are alive.  Asha arrives and tries to ransom Theon but Stannis refuses, promising that he’s a dead man. Grief stricken and outraged, she attempts to manipulate the king into giving him a quick and painless death via beheading. The chapter ends with the Ravens implied to be possessed by Bloodraven and Bran, demanding he be bought to a weirwood.
  5. Tyrion I: Tyrion was in the middle of attempting to convince Brown Ben Plumm to switch sides when the Ironborn arrived and Ser Barristan begins his valiant attack. A nervous Tyrion reflects on his past battle experience, thinking about how Shae might have lied to him the whole time, and praises Pod for being a good lad. He sees the Second Sons cope with the ongoing battle in their own way with Bokkoko shamelessly kissing his lover for example. Going inside the tent, having decided he wants to live despite all he has done, he has Penny help him with his armor. Penny is unusually quick witted as Tyrion makes a commentary on how war is a game to the Wise Masters and tells Penny to be prepared for death. Penny kisses him and Tyrion can’t help but feel conflicting feelings of guilt, pity, and misogynistic rage. Before Tyrion could hurt Penny, Tyrion goes outside to see the Dragons. Rhaegal is circling the bay while Viserion returns to his pyramid. An envoy from Pudding Face arrives and tries to order the Second Sons to attack the Longships much to the Second Sons utter confusion, with it being clear that the chain of command is being muddled and split by The Girl General. Brown Ben returns and reveals that he has been given orders to defend Wicked Sister. Marselan has already defeated The Long Lances and brought down Ghost of Astapor. Ser Barristan is feinting the Harridan and going towards Wicked Sister, while the Unsullied are facing Two Ghiscari Legions and the Company of the Cat with the purpose of demolishing Harpy’s Daughter. An envoy of The Drunken Conqueror comes in and reveals Pudding Face was betrayed by the Windblown, this tips the Second Sons over the edge and they switch sides, as Tyrion picks up the white cyvasse in the shape of a dragon, foreshadowing his taming of Viserion.
  6. Baristan II: Ser Barristan is nervous as he leads the charge but knows that it will go away as the battle begins in earnest. He easily outpaces his army and delivers the first blow as the Yunkishmen are caught unawares. Heading towards the Harridan, as Jokin takes up the cry for “Darrio!” then in unison they shout “Stormcrows, Fly!” Our brave knight promises to never doubt the valor of sellswords again. The Yunkai’i only begin their defense thirty yards before he reaches them as the air fills with crossbow bolts, killing a Stormcrow squire and striking Barristan’s shield. Three horn blasts in quick succession, and the pit fighters enter the battlefield roaring and clamoring. One is a naked woman with her tits out, some are clearly still loyal to Hizdhar while others shout for Daenerys. Ghiscari Legions six deep have formed a defense in front of the Harridan so Barristan switches directions and attacks the Little Pigeon instead, being the weak link. Larraq is injured but keeps the standard up as the Red Lamb kills the Little Pigeon. The Clanker Lords flee but their chained together slave soldiers are slaughtered by the freedmen. Ser Barristan looks back and sees the Unsullied have formed a spearwall making any counterattack unlikely to succeed. Tumcho Lho sees ships and tells him they have Squid banners like the ones that pull down ships in the Basilisk Isles. In Westeross they call them Krakens. Ser Barristan is confused but overjoyed as this means certain victory. 
  7. Tyrion II: The Second Sons are riding North towards the Girl General and Wicked Sister with Tyrion & Penny on the same horse much to his dismay. The Slaver Alliance is in near rout as the Beastmasters menagerie run wild, mass looting of Yunkish tents is rampant, and slaves are fighting amongst each other. Rhaegal returns, torching Wicked Sister and takes care of the girl general. Then Dragonbinder is sounded tossing Tyrion & Penny from their horse. He sees Iron Victory aflame the smell of burning pork wafting in the wind. He sees The Second Sons and Meereens defenders enter the city without them. Tyrion considers abandoning Penny but remembering how his brother did nothing to help Tysha, comes back for her hijacking a chariot and rushes toward the gate as it closes, ending on a cliffhanger.
  8. Asha I: Asha reflects on how she came here to this place as she prepares for battle. She also notices she is late on her period. Stannis has beheaded Arnolf Karstark in front of the weirwood while burning the two mortally wounded grandsons who fought back. Asha notes that the snow has covered the lake and that Stannis has built siege engines, battering rams, and most importantly catapults. She is sent to the frontline to lure the Frey heavy horse on the ice using the remaining horses with the Karstark men and Asha’s remaining crew as bait. The Frey arrive with the head of Crowfood Umber, enraging the Mountain clans. While the Mountain Clans battle the Frey Foot nominally led by Big Walder, the Frey Horse follow the night lamp until they are directly on the icy ponds. Many people die including Qarl as Tris saves Asha. Much to their surprise the Manderlys lance the remaining Freys in the back. The Manderlys switch sides and it turns out Davos has returned with Rickon and Skagosson men.
  9. Barristan III: Ser Barristan has successfully taken the Harridan, sweeping the Ghiscari Legion from behind before marching on Wicked Sister. He is surprised to see Tyrion and even more shocked to see Rhaegal burn Wicked Sister, barely keeping on his horse. Then Dragonbinder sounds, tossing him from his horse, as his leg is broken. The Rabbit finds him later on the way to retreat and orders him stripped naked and dragged back to Yunkai on a horse.
  10. Ghost: Ghost is desperately trying to escape the kennel but is having much difficulty. In his POV, we learn that to him the Wall smells like blood and that the Others are hunting Bran. He smells smoke from the Shieldhall as it burns. We then cut to Jon’s POV, his freezing dying body chained to an ice cell as the two corpses start to rise. We return to Ghost who bites Mully’s arm off and escapes while Borroqs Boar kills brothers.
  11. Arianne I: Arianne leaves the Water Gardens as a envoy for her father to Jon Connington and the Golden Company. Ellaria Sand is returning to Hellholt with her daughter Loreza while Dorea remains in the Water Gardens, Obella becomes a cupbearer at Sunspear, and Elia joins Arianne as a lady not a lance. She is joined by the bastard of Godsgrace, Ser Daemon Sand, her former lover and rumored to be her uncles as well. Arianne reflects on her mistakes, feeling guilt for getting Ser Arys Oakheart killed and making Myrcella lose a ear. Lord Jon Connington has sent a letter asserting that Aegon is alive, asking for aid. They meet at Ghost Hill where they get receive news from Lady Toland and her two daughters. Sellswords have stormed the Stormlands capturing several castles, a new pirate king has crowned himself Lord of the Waters (Aurane Waters), slavers and reavers are raiding the Narrow Sea as the Youngest Toland daughter reveals she has prophetic dreams predicting the Second Dance Of The Dragons but is ignored completely. That night Arianne offers Daemon into her bed but he refuses still bitter over being refused her hand. They talk seriously over the legitimacy of Aegon VI, about her uncle and Darkstar, and whether Daenerys is mad or not, ending the chapter 
  12. Alayne I: Sansa Stark disguised as Alayne Snow is having breakfast with Mya Stone and the young Lord Robert Arryn. Robert is upset as it is revealed that he knows everyone is waiting for him to die while Sansa is excited over being betrothed to Harry the Heir. A tourney is being held to decide who will become the 8 members of The Brotherhood Of The Winged Knights. She goes outside, enjoying the Gates of the Moon compared to the great silence of The Eyrie and meets Myranda Royce who starts gossiping about Ser Lyn Corbray’s gayness. They meet him and he is pissed that Littlefinger arranged a marriage for his elder brother Lyonel but Sansa wonders if he is Littlefingers double agent or intends to double cross him. She then meets the Hardyngs, including Harry who is really rude to her. She is comforted by Ser Lothor Brune and then goes to meet Littlefinger who is planning to hoard grain and instigate a famine. Sansa complains about Harry so Littlefinger advises her to bewitch and seduce him at the ball tonight. That night she dances with several knights before getting to dance with Harry who she successfully seduces, starting her role as an active player in the Game of Thrones, promising her favor in the tourney to a yet unknown knight.
  13. Mercy: Arya dreams of Nymeria seeing Bran through a Weirwood Tree. Waking up, she has taken the identity of Mercidene who has been cast as Sansa in The Bloody Hand, a Richard III Esque play starring Tyrion. She is supposed to be raped in a play (acted out) for the Iron’s Throne’s envoy Ser Harys Swyft who the now free Queen Cersei has sent to renegoiate the debt of the crown. He hired the Black Pearl as an escort. Mercy sees two of the Mountain’s Men and recognizes Raff The Sweetling and Shitmouth. They are complaining about the cold in Braavos lending further creedence to the theory that Dany's recollection of the House With The Red Door wasn't in Braavos. Arya seduces Raff who turns out to be a pedophile and lures him to an apartment, where she cuts his leg. Raff asks for her to carry him to which Arya replies think so and kills him. On the way back to the play Mercy reflects on losing her identity and states that she is going to be raped AND killed.
  14. The Executioner: Areo is at Plankytown with Ser Balon, Obara, his squires and several retainers. We get a lot of worldbuilding in Plankytown as Ser Balon experiences culture shock, seemingly bonding with Areo and the party sent to catch Darkstar while Obara acts cold. Areo leaves to find Obara. We get a flashback at the Water Gardens where a scarred Myrcella begs Ser Balon to avenge her and hunt down Darkstar. Areo wonders how Arianne convinced her and its revealed that Darkstar didn't actually mutilate Myrcella; an loosed crossbow bolt had done it and they were hunting him down because he was the only one left who knew the truth. It is also revealed that Tyene was the one who ratted Arianne out, outraged by being left out of the Queenmaker plot which Doran had deduced but didn't believe. Throughout this chapter and the rest of Areo's the words "Serve. Obey. Protect." repeat in his mind. After meeting up with Obara they talk about Darkstar and his sinister repute with the plan being to kill Ser Aerys at Hellholt. Areo goes to bed that night deciding to follow orders. But for the first time in his life, he asks why.
  15. Bran I: Below the cave of the Three Eyed Crow, Bran's greenseer training is continuing. He is making a remarkable pace though he is growing homesick. He spends a lot of his time warging or treeseeing, exploring the ocean as a fish, traveling south through Bird, or taking time for live history lessons. One time he wargs into Summer while he's mating with Sly, disturbing him greatly. The Three Eyed Crow warns him not to spend too much time warging as his real body could die in the process. He teaches him how to speak through Raven, helping Theon when Bran sees his end state. Meera is absent most of the time, searching for Jojen who is missing but Bran doesn't worry, his innocence blinding him from the obvious. Meera does find Dark Sister and grows suspicious of the Children. Leaf distracts him by telling him a story that implies Jenny of Oldstones was her granddaughter and admits that she's resentful of humanity for killing her people. Feeling guilty, he offers her people safe passage North and the protection of Robb Stark who he doesn't know is dead. Leaf is touched by this but looks disturbed, the first of many warning signs that Bran naively ignores until it's too late. Taken to the Three Eyed Crow without his consent, he reveals that Daemon Blackfyre was a dreamer manipulated by Bittersteel and his supporters to rebel. He was the brother he loved, heightening the tragedy of the Redgrass Field. Bran pities him then Bloodraven drops a bombshell: He never sent Jojen dreams. Continuing the lesson despite Bran's unease he asks Bran to go beyond Winterfell where Bran sees many things of note that grow more disturbing as he sees them: Rhaegar & Lyanna hanging out in the Isle of Faces, Ned comforting Ashara Dayne, Daemon Targaryen cutting notches on the tree at Harrenhal, the Pact being signed, sees Arya in Braavos at the door on the House of Black and White, and finally the CotF creating the Others by merging Children with Weirwoods. Leaf and the Three Eyed Crow explain that the Children created the Others as vengeance against humanity but regretted it upon them destroying nature through endless winter and that Bran must help stop them, whether he wants to or not.
  16. Davos I: Davos is practically marooned on Skagos for several months. We learn some nuances about the Skagosi: The cannibalism rumors were due to the Skagosi being Wargs (hence why Osha brought Rickon there), human sacrifice being done out of mercy as much as ritual, and The First Night being a duty. Peat fires and bog butter are surprising innovations as well. We see GRRMs version of unicorns, basically ugly hardy goats. Davos travels across the isle until he meets the hegemon of Skagos who has Rickon, who has turned feral much to Davos dismay. We also have Davos get to know Osha who reveals her backstory, with her sister being Holi who prostituted themselves to get out from beyond the wall after Osha lost her husband and baby to the Others. We then learn that the Feast of Skane was because the Skane were sacrificing babies to the Others. The Magnar agrees to send 200 men and Rickon in exchange for marriage pacts but the catch is that Davos as lord must partake in the First Night. For the first and not the last time in this book, Davos seriously considers abandoning Stannis but reluctantly agrees. Once all is set and done, Davos returns to White Harbor after Lord Wyman Manderly leaves for Winterfell. "Where to?" "A Wedding."

r/asoiaf • • 1d ago

EXTENDED [Spoilers Extended]What real historical events can you see reflected in ASOIAF? Spoiler

Post image
68 Upvotes

I know that George R. R. Martin drew inspiration from real historical events when writing A Song of Ice and Fire, especially the Wars of the Roses.

I’m interested in both the historical inspirations Martin has explicitly mentioned and the parallels that fans have discovered themselves. I’d love to hear some lesser-known examples, too!


r/asoiaf • • 1d ago

EXTENDED [Spoilers EXTENDED] There's little reason to think Sansa will die particularly soon...

22 Upvotes

...if Ned's words about lone wolves are to mean anything for the Starks themselves.

"Let me tell you something about wolves, child. When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. Summer is the time for squabbles. In winter, we must protect one another, keep each other warm, share our strengths. So if you must hate, Arya, hate those who would truly do us harm. Septa Mordane is a good woman, and Sansa... Sansa is your sister. You may be as different as the sun and the moon, but the same blood flows through both your hearts. You need her, as she needs you... and I need both of you, gods help me."

A lot of discourse has been spun over that GRRM interview where he mentioned killing Sansa off as a future possibility. I'd posit that there's a pretty good reason to believe that Sansa needs to stay alive and not just be killed off or die in the Vale due to some slipper shenanigans or mouse kidnappings.

The reason is that without her, there's really little meaning to Ned's words. Just as she was in the first book, she still serves the role of being, to be honest, the only source of potential conflict within the Stark family especially in the context of any future reunions. Without genuine conflict between the Starks, what meaning is there really to be had with them being able to put aside their differences to protect each other? If Ned's words are to mean anything important, you need a real conflict for the members of the family to set aside.

There's only 5 Starks left: Jon, Bran, Rickon, Sansa, and Arya, and we can work our way through the different groupings to see that really there's not much tension without Sansa there.

Rickon is 5 years old. While Georgie plays a bit fast and loose with character maturities, a 5 year old being raised on Cannibal Unicorn Island and warging his childhood away is still probably too young to really have any meaningful disputes with his siblings. At worst he could be a rowdy pawn for some 3rd party holding him hostage, but I don't think that's the meaning of Ned's words. Not much in the way of inter-personal conflict potential with Rickon vsv the other Starks.

Bran could have some conflict but he's geographically isolated and is being trained to be a wizard with interests that extend far away from personal squabbles. Perhaps his wizardry leads to him having some opinions that conflict with the rest, but those reasons are likely supernatural and probably come with insight into important goings-ons in the past and far north that it still doesn't strike me as a strong source of personal, inter-family conflict. Also Bran is still quite young, alone, and disabled. Similar situation as Rickon in that not exactly sure what he could do other than be a pawn for someone else so a political squabble is unlikely.

So that leaves the three eldest with Jon, Arya, and Sansa. I don't think I really need to spell out why Jon and Arya are unlikely to have any significant disagreements with each other. Their closeness growing up and even in the present have already shown willingness to risk themselves to preserve/protect that connection (Jon forsaking his vows to rescue fArya from Ramsay, and Arya defying the Faceless Men and keeping Needle). Not likely to be much in the way of political disagreements between them either given the suspiciously Sansa-shaped elephant in the room with regards to any succession questions.

So the only real likely sources of inter-personal conflict within the family would have to come from Sansa-Jon or Sansa-Arya.

Sansa and Jon could easily have conflicts with each other. Not for any childhood grudge reasons, but just for the fact that of the Starks they were the least close. They really didn't share too many common interests growing up and Westeros is a highly gendered society anyway especially in child-rearing so they just didn't spend that much time together (was Jon ever going to hang out with Sansa and her Septa for needle lessons? Doubt it). That in and of itself could be a source of conflict because unlike the others they really don't know each other that well. They wouldn't immediately know what to expect of the other and if by the time the two are doing anything political, they'd also both have followers, courtiers, etc. who would have an interest in pushing their guy and wouldn't think twice about voicing concerns about this other Stark they don't know and don't support who might get in the way.

There's also the issue of Winterfell's Succession. If Jon were to be resurrected and come back different, less inhibited and bound by notions of Duty or Honor, it'd be very easy to see him making a push for Winterfell. He might also have someone like Melisandre whispering in his ear about how he's the Lord's Chosen and destined for greatness and yadda yadda. If Robb's will comes to light, that would only reinforce any feelings of entitlement and desire he would already have.

Sansa herself still desires Winterfell and has the best normal claim vsv Jon. Robb's will is a monkey wrench if it goes public, but it's also not binding in any actual real sense. Sansa could easily argue that the context the will was written under no longer applies. Robb disinherited her because she was a hostage of and force married to the Lannisters. That is no longer the case. In any situation where Sansa is doing anything political she'll be doing so in fact in direct defiance of and open rebellion against the Lannisters who have already declared her a kingslayer. 2+2=4 it's not a difficult hurdle especially for those that are already in Sansa's camp and wouldn't benefit from pushing a dodgy will that supports someone else.

What the will could do very easily, building off of how Sansa and Jon don't really know each other that well compared to their other siblings, is in creating a deeper emotional sense of conflict/betrayal. Regardless of the context around the will, it might still hurt that she was disinherited and it might lead Sansa to striving harder for Winterfell and even holding some poor opinions of Jon if/when he asserts his own claim to Winterfell. Jon would be a more enigmatic figure for her and she wouldn't be able to get a good read of his true motives (whatever they are. His motives might truly be malicious if he's going full wolf-blood by this point) and thus her perception of him could get colored by hearsay and rumor. This also doesn't even take into account how she might not even believe the person claiming to be Jon is in fact him. She could definitely hear stories about Jon coming back from the dead and making a push for Winterfell, but anyone can claim to be someone else especially if that someone's name could earn them power. Unless they meet, there's good reason she might not necessarily trust that it's actually him.

This goes both ways and Jon, similarly, wouldn't be able to intuitively know/feel Sansa's true motives or opinions of him. Most he'll have to work with is what other people say of her, and if he learns about the fArya situation with Jeyne, then this would be the 3rd time thinking someone is his sister. He might not trust that she is who she says she is unless they actually meet.

Easy to see how this dynamic of mutual distrust and the unknown spirals out of control.

This then leaves Sansa and Arya whose relationship Ned's entire speech was directly addressing. George has already said before that they "have a lot to work out" though that could mean a lot of things. Not only would the two have whatever childhood tensions might still be lingering (though at this point, after all that's happened it'd be odd if that were a major issue), but the two are still very different people from each other. Perhaps there's even some tensions that bubble up if Arya gets wind of Sansa's involvement in Ned's imprisonment and holds it against her. If Sansa is still under Littlefinger's thumb/influence, then I'm sure he'd be whispering in her ear and stoking conflict while unhappy with how his key to the north could have competition/could even see Sansa herself slip out of his groping grasp if he doesn't ensure the two distrust each other. Likewise if Lady Stoneheart is still around, I doubt she'd be a great influence on Arya with regards to forgiveness.

There could be a class component to their conflict.

If Arya connects back up with the Brotherhood, they're not exactly the Lord-Loving types to say the least and Arya in general has a higher affinity for the lower-classes. On the flip-side, if Sansa were to rise to power in her current circumstances and Rally the Lords of the Vale, well, it'd be the Lords and Knights of the Vale supporting her. As far as Lords go they haven't done much pillaging and at this point there really isn't anything left to pillage (especially in the Riverlands where the two would groups could likely interact), but it's not like any Lords of Westeros are great to the common-folk. Any leader is going to be limited by the sensibilities of those that follow them and that could lead to tension between these two Starks.

There's also the magical divide and religious divide between them. While Sansa doesn't disregard the Old Gods, she does show a higher personal affinity for the Faith of the Seven and any Vale lords who rally to her are going to be more Andal Faith oriented as well. Also Sansa is the least magic/wilds inclined of the Starks. In the battle of Man vs Nature (a common theme in the series) she is currently far more humanity aligned than Nature.

Compare that to Arya and the Brotherhood. Arya herself is very attuned to Nymeria, the wilds, and is more enmeshed in magical things. The Brotherhood are r'hllor oriented and have been led by two resurrected zombies.

A lot of opportunities for inter-family conflict that comes from their respective personal affinities but also the circumstances of the potential followers around them.

TLDR: If Ned's words about Starks banding together in times of trouble despite conflicts between them are to mean anything, then Sansa has to stay alive for that to happen as without her there's not much for the remaining Starks to have to put aside in the name of family.