r/warcraftlore • u/NewWillinium • 1d ago
It's Weird that Prince Kael'thas Sunstrider didn't ever have kids right?
I've been thunking on this for a good while now, ever since I read up on the Legion Artifacts and discovering Lyandra Sunstrider and Nallorath Sunstrider, how weird it is that the Sunstrider Dynasty apparently has no living members.
How in several millenia of rule, Anasterion only ever had one canonical son, and how after at least centuries of life served in Dalaran as one of it's ruling Council of Six and active confirmation on him creeping on and falling for at least one of it's young apprentices (Jaina Proudmoore), that Kael'thas himself never had any by-blows or children while living away from Quel'thalas.
And that's weird right?
This is a character who we are shown, pretty much from the beginning back in Warcraft 3, is someone who sought out romance and whom we learn later considered courting Sylvanas as well as his fixation on Jaina Proudmoore.
It feels weird when we take his depiction in "Arthas Rise of the Lich King" in mind, that Kael'thas never pursued any other apprentice or wizard of the Kirin Tor producing his own bastard children, when he's shown actively putting moves on this apprentice of one of his colleague's and holds it as one of his greatest grudges he holds against the slaughterer of his people.
Arthas: "Are you still upset that I stole Jaina from you, Kael?"
Kael: "You've taken everything I've ever cared for, Arthas. Vengeance is all I have left."
"Jaina loathes you now, Arthas. You sicken and disgust her. Anything she felt for you has long since turned into hatred."
It's not just me that finds it weird that, through this characterization we've gotten that has remained a consistent thing, that Jaina was the only person he ever "pursued" in such a way during his time in the Kirin Tor for centuries.
Does anyone else find that odd with the characterization we've gotten?
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u/GrumpySatan Why use 1 sentence when 20 will do? 1d ago
Its not weird because the main flaw of the high elves was hubris. Anasterion had ruled for 3,000 years. Picture how long and stable that is. He ruled for 30% longer than Christianity has existed irl. They thought themselves invincible and secure in their power. There is no rush for Kael to have a kid, because he might not even rule for several more centuries if not for the Scourge.
All of Kael's romances were added in retroactively after he was villain-batted and killed (which is why they sorta present him as a loser that Jaina and Sylvanas don't like, rather than adding in a wife and kid). They wanted to emphasize his death and why, rather than undo it or its consequences. Even into Chronicle they changed it so his people always disliked him and preferred Lorthemar immeasurably to his rule even before he went evil.
On the topic of bastards, this is sorta Metzen who has long associated bastards with not being "good" and something the heroic or good characters should do. Realistically a lot of these noble characters should have bastards, including Anasterian.
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u/aidenmc3 1d ago
To be fair Arthas taunts Kael about Jaina in warcraft 3 frozen throne, so it’s at least a consistent thing for Jaina.
It’s just that there’s really no good way to expand on that plot thread with the timeline they have in place, especially when they compressed the timeline of the warcraft games later on.
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u/KingAnumaril For the Alliance 1d ago
speaking of timeline, it takes weeks to reach kalimdor according to landfall mission by ship.
So how long did human+undead campaign take and when does it link up?
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u/aidenmc3 1d ago
You’d have to be a smarter man then me to figure that out. I know general time between events, but not the actual time they take.
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u/SuperSaiga 1d ago
I estimated a timeline for my own reference, based on the mentions of the passage of time in the novels/Warcraft 3 loading screens.
I'd have to be home at my computer for any detailed cross referencing, but I believe the rough order is:
Arthas leaves Stratholme for Northrend, which is a few weeks, does all the stuff he does there
Around the time he's finished, Thrall leaves for Kalimdor
Jaina leaves at a later date
While they're sailing, Arthas arrives in Lordaeron, kills his dad, invades Silvermoon, and sieges Dalaran
Thrall and Jaina arrive in Kalimdor around the same time, because Jaina didn't face the same delays that Thrall did.
I can't remember where I got all these references from but I definitely remember the orc campaign at least partially happens after the Siege of Dalaran because we see an interlude with the demons going on to terrorize random human towns in Lordaeron while the orcs explore Ashenvale.
I later found out that the Rise of the Lich King novel has Jaina present in Dalaran right before Arthas sieges it, so that would push her departure date to then. I think that doesn't really allow enough time for her to make it to Kalimdor at the same time as Thrall, because it's a pretty big journey, but I guess it is what it is.
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u/KingAnumaril For the Alliance 1d ago
Yeaahh that last part doesn't sit well with me either.
I will try to compile a timeline for my own reference sometime.
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u/Zeejir 20h ago edited 19h ago
To be fair Blizzard can't keep the size of the world the same between quests/books/etc. to save their own live.
Newer books have a way smaller world to the point that traveling through a zone with an Army takes less than a day, and flying beeing way faster to the point it get stupid
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u/Slowpokebread 1d ago
I think it's obvious that Jaina didn't have interest in Kael even if there is no Arthas.
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u/aidenmc3 1d ago
I mean in frozen throne we have no idea, that lore wasn’t really expanded on until Rise of the lich king. They could have dated, had a fling, or just been close with an unrequited love.
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u/NewWillinium 1d ago
In the book she was very much not into him
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u/aidenmc3 1d ago
Well yeah but the comment was that all his romances were added in after villain batting him. The jaina romance was set up in his first appearance, but it only got expanded after the villain batting.
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u/Slowpokebread 12h ago
As much as I think they don't fit each other, RotLK did handle their relationship badly. Kael was acting like a pervert rather than "I have crush on her, but I need to keep my feeling."
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u/Slowpokebread 1d ago
Actually it was mentioned a bit in the encyclopedia around TBC.
In TFT, it really gave me the impression that Arthas and Kael'thas were once friends, you can see Arthas didn't have that much mockery when seeing Kael. Still based on the personality they showed, I don't think Kael fit Jaina well, even when I write relationship I prefer Tyrande.
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u/aidenmc3 1d ago
I mean, it’s a question of what the relationship is. Arthas as a whole is a man who prefers action, is head strong, and wants to do what’s right even as it wars with his own pride.
Which… Kael’Thas holds many similar qualities to that. His pride especially. But he would also be someone who looks upon Jaina as a colleague if that makes any sense. Ignoring the weird power dynamics of the age gap and such for the moment, when Jaina does something incredible with magic, Kael’Thas would understand that. Basically, it’s the ability to understand her work on a deeper level that could allow a connection there.
At least, if that’s how I was going to write it, that would be the hook I would use.
Arthas is a friend from child hood, a peer in a political sense that she disagrees with some things on but know’s his heart is in the right place. It’s a romance that comes from an earlier place in her life and the confidence they can share together.
Kael could represent the life that she wanted to lead. To be a mage of dalaran. To pursue her craft to its perfection. To study and talk about magic for hours.
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u/Slowpokebread 1d ago
Kael in TFT wasn't arrogant, he was quite humble and kind, willing to care for other races.
I'm not saying he isn't a good person, but he and Jaina fit much better to be friends or brother/sister than lovers, that would need some extra flavor. Kael'thas is a bit "too nice" to pursue her, especially the age gap would make him feel more guilty to do so. He also had his kingdom responsibility, I don't think his family and many of his people will accept a human as their queen.
Same with Kael and Sylvanas, I think they would be much better as comrades than couple.
I think Tyrande and Kael fit better because Tyrande obviously is more aggressive to pursue.
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u/riftrender 1d ago
Are there any bastard characters in Warcraft?
The only one I can think of in canon is Arator but his parents would be in a common law marriage.
And then Daelin had a half-elf bastard daughter but that's rpg.
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u/GrumpySatan Why use 1 sentence when 20 will do? 1d ago
It was commenting on Daelin's daughter (before RPG was non-canonized) where Metzen first talked about not liking "good" characters having bastards.
I can't think of any non-Arator notable bastards. Medan? Honestly, we're usually lucky if they have both parents named most of the time. Kael'thas mother was completely unmentioned until Midnight (where she shows up in housing decor) and she still doesn't have a name.
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u/KingAnumaril For the Alliance 1d ago
preferred Lorthemar
I know he was basically a tool, but Lorthemar was doing big brother shit.
Weird man. Old Silvermoon was there for ages.
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u/GrumpySatan Why use 1 sentence when 20 will do? 1d ago
Its because the Blood Elves and High Elves already had bad blood so the blood elves didn't care about things he did to dissenters. The blood elves are kinda like that lol.
Lorthemar, to his credit, didn't like that and has continually regretted his actions in TBC since. But he took a pragmatic "we are literally on the verge of dying out as a race and most of our able-bodied citizens are away and cut off from us. We don't have the luxury of dissent at the moment."
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u/Emperor_poopatine 1d ago
He had a thing for Jaina, but that never happened. Then Arthas destroyed Quel’Thalas and corrupted the Sunwell. He was essentially forced into a leadership role when he wasn’t ready, and became focused on rebuilding his kingdom and finding a way to help his people’s magic withdrawals after the Sunwell was destroyed. So, having kids wasn’t top of his priority list.
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u/McGames355 1d ago
Eh it doesn't stand out too hard to me, he was interested in jaina but that didn't pan out, and than he was trying to rebuild after arthas destroyed the sun well. I always took it as a focus towards his people versus himself after that
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u/Ohwerk82 1d ago
He debated a betrothal to Sylvanas long ago as well but decided against it. He knew he had to get married and have children but he assumed he had a lot more time.
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u/DefiantLemur 1d ago
I'm not surprised considering elf lifespans. Us humans have a 20 to 30 year window to have children. High Elves have a century at minimum.
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u/Ohwerk82 1d ago
Definitely. Kael also isn’t under any pressure to have an heir, the High King didn’t actually rule Silvermoon and were only figureheads.
He had a few thousand years left to get an heir to take over for him if Anasterian had abruptly died at any point before so it wasn’t a high priority.
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u/Blackstone01 22h ago
What is surprising is the seemingly lack of Sunstriders. At the very least you'd think Kael would have a sibling or two, and several cousins (he had some vague relative that was a San'layn wielding the fire mage artifact weapon, but that's about it).
But that's pretty true for most of the royal families in game. No Wrynns left other than Anduin, Genn and Tess are the last two of the Greymane dynasty, Calia's daughter is the last (living) Menethil, etc.
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u/DrByeah Lore master without a title 1d ago
Especially given his dad had been ruling for like 3,000 years at that point, somehow. Sure he was considered thoroughly old by then, but not like about to keel over old.
Kael probably figured he had another hundred, maybe two hundred years to find himself a nice queen before he was even crowned. Let alone before he'd need an heir.
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u/Slowpokebread 1d ago
I think if Sylvanas wasn't killed in ROC, she would possibly become the regent of Silvermoon, but I don't think they would get along, they fit much better as comrades than lovers.
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u/Defiant_Act_4940 1d ago
Might have just been a political match. Sylvanas was the ranger general of Silvermoon. Also since that title seems hereditary the Windrunners are probably high nobility in Quel'thalas.
Sylvanas would be an appropriate march for the future king.
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u/Ohwerk82 1d ago
It was, he thought she was a good match due to her status and at the time Alleria would have succeeded. She made a bunch of dickish remarks about him and he heard so it went no where.
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u/esar24 1d ago
To be fair, none of the notable BE characters have biological children, I don't remember they ever mention offspring from liadrin, lorthemar, valeera and even Sylvannas pre-forsaken.
Liadrin have a daughter but she is adopted and we don't know if lor and thal has ready to add a member to their family.
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u/tkulue 1d ago
Its strange but most of warcraft is strange with familys in general. Out of most of the faction leaders only about a handful of them actually have siblings even though most of the factions leaders in one way or another have inherited position of power. And even then most of the leaders are the literal last of their family with wink wing nudge nudge hints that they might have a kid maybe somewhere down the line.
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u/AllieTruist 1d ago
I guess it kinda makes sense because the medium of a world like WoW is kind of like a soap opera. Kids are a huge storytelling problem because you have to wait so long for them to become characters, and usually require just magically aging them up faster because the format doesn’t allow for bigger time jumps.
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u/DrByeah Lore master without a title 1d ago
Big examples being Anduin and Dagran. Anduin was properly introduced in Vanilla where he was already a kid and he wasn't really an independent character until MoP or arguably Cata.
Dagran is introduced as a baby in Cata and doesn't become an independent character until War Within a whole 14 years later. And even then he doesn't really feel like he's 15 years old at max.
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u/TheRobn8 1d ago
2/3 of the adult windrunner sisters had kids after both parents died , and the 3rd died childless, and liadrin adopted a kid, so elves seem to think they got time for kids, and dont think about having any as a priority
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u/lovelylotuseater 1d ago
It may be that much like Kalecgos, with Anveena and Jaina, his attraction may skew towards people with strong magical potential.
Jaina may be the first he saw potential in, or may have been part of a longer list with other options that simply did not pan out.
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u/Available-Pangolin12 1d ago
Elves hardly procreate they're too busy chasing immortality with their fonts of power
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u/Ashendant 1d ago
I wouldn't be surprised if Kael'thas got a child somewhere in Outlands after spending some time in the Den of Mortal Delights in the Black Temple.
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u/Slowpokebread 1d ago
Kael got connection with nearly all the important female characters in WC3. But he probably was a bit too polite to get "love" from most of them.
Jaina-former crush. Tyrande-friend Vashj-ally Maiev-enemy Sylvanas-prince and general
I think if Sylvanas wasn't killed in ROC, she would possibly become the regent of Silvermoon, but I don't think they would get along, they fit much better as comrades than lovers.
Same with Jaina, they don't fit too well. I think Kael fell for her due to she has passion and was insightful.
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u/TerrapinMagus Wyrmrest Accord (US) 1d ago
Jaina was at least 18 when he would have met her, right?
Yeah... It's a little weird either way.
Also, man High Elves just have the hots for humans huh? Come to think of it, have any big name high elf/blood elf characters married another high elf/blood elf? Lor'themar comes closest I guess, marrying another flavor of elf. We don't have many examples, and within that sample size it's pretty damning.
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u/Xivitai Kaldorei Empire enjoyer. 1d ago
Well, Elves apparently don't have an age problem. I mean, Lor'themar married a woman a few millenia older than him and nobody bats an eye among elves.
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u/SlipperySlimyTerry40 1d ago
Ok but if Lor'themar was a few millennia older than Thalyssra then suddenly it's an issue! /s
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u/NewWillinium 1d ago
Jaina was at least 18 when he would have met her, right?
There abouts yeah, 17 or 18 is when she was apprenticed to Antonidas.
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u/Interesting-Pin4994 1d ago
I'm sure he had no shortage of lovers. He may have deliberately avoided having children due to being crown prince, but he lived long enough to have had more than a few paramours.
This is the main reason he and Jaina were never going to work. High elves are never going to accept a half elf as a prince. The only alternative is taking Jaina proudmoore as a lover, but her being the daughter of Admiral proudmoore complicates things too much.
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u/Mangoes95 1d ago
iirc she also just wasn't interested which is probably a bigger factor
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u/Interesting-Pin4994 17h ago
I mean, he's older than her father, grandfather, great grandfather, and add in how many greats until you match his age. Of course she's not going to be interested.
Add in that he's a professor, and she likely knew him since before she knew what romance is. He had no chance.
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u/Whataburger_Official 11h ago
It’s weird how almost every main character doesn’t have kids. And the few who do are usually adopted.
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u/Apprehensive_Cap4463 11h ago
He was an incel chud that got brutally cucked into oblivion by the gigachad paladin art has
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u/Voltztein 1d ago
Better question: Why do all of the high ranking elves go after humans?