r/warcraftlore • u/Bobbimort • 1d ago
Why did Illidan never say why he "joined" azshara?
Random question.
I've been reading the entire WoW novel series, and some time ago I read the well of eternity trilogy. I've always wondered why Illidan was called "the betrayer", so finding that out was pretty cool. But after finishing the trilogy I just wondered why illidan would simply disappear and not even say "hey, I'm gonna go and try to infiltrate the legion and dismantle it from the inside. Don't try to dissuade me cause you can't". I can sort of understand the edge Lord vibe he has going on, but still, him actually saying something would have saved him so many problems, and he had to have known that going that way without saying anything would have severe consequences. And it's not like he joined azshara with any other purpose: since he arrived at the palace his sole intention was to stop whatever was going on.
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u/Affectionate_Sir9020 1d ago
It’s kind of easy, at least for me to see.
He’s insecure, so he wanted to prove himself. Especially to tyrande and malfurion.
He did it alone without saying it because he’s prideful. Telling anyone was an ego move he could not bring himself to do. It’s also part of proving himself, and strategically, if the legion had spies, it would compromise the plan.
He’s selfish. His actions may have lead to the cause of Azeroth but it was selfish I nature because he also sought power. I wonder if once he infiltrated the highborne and felt no other recourse he might have considered just staying with them.
How can I be so sure? Well we can infer from the source material and it makes sense to me because I recognize those own behaviors from my own life.
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u/Outrageous-Syrup-568 1d ago
Lets be honest... it was a retcon. Blizzard fucked up with Ilidan in tbc to be honest. There were no hints or clues that could have foreshadowed he was fighting the legion all along.
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u/Cranias 1d ago
He's always flirted with demons but he's always hated the invasion itself. He wants their power but not to destroy azeroth. He's done many things to prevent the latter. His story in TBC was odd, but book & war3 Illidan always had the right main idea.
I stopped following the lore after they killed Cairne, so I've no idea what happened after. For me WoW lore is up to cata and that's it haha
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u/SuperSaiga 1d ago
No, original lore was that he did genuinely join Azshara's side because he wanted to avoid losing the Well of Eternity. This was quickly retconned with the Well of Eternity novels but prior to that there was no indication that it was ever anything but a genuine betrayal in Warcraft 3.
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u/KingAnumaril For the Alliance 1d ago
He doesn't want to destroy azeroth, but he's cool with fucking up the icecaps to get to lich king with eye of SARGERAS in the name of KILJAEDEN. His way of fighting and reward is very "fuck you, got mine."
He's a wee bit fucked in the head but almost all the time he tries to get the most destructive option possible.
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u/twisty125 Flowerpicker Clan 1d ago
Nah that's frankly a bad take. Destroying the Lich King (the most powerful being on the planet at that point) trumps some imagined damage to some iceo another continent. I say imagined because outside of minor earthquakes, everything that Malfurion says is happening, is just anxiety he's having, we never see any actual damage from the attacks anywhere, outside of the damage done to the Frozen Throne.
It's more stupid that his smart brother fought the Scourge at Hyjal, saw the Scourge fighting Illidan's forces at Dalaran, and couldn't put two and two together and instead decided to attack the guy the Scourge are attacking. It's like if Illidan came up and smacked Malfurion while he was blowing the horn to summon the wisps because it looked dangerous. Oops, Archimonde wins!
Really makes you wonder if Malfurion was on the Lich King's side because he saved his life, and then did absolutely nothing to attempt to kill him afterwards.
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u/KingAnumaril For the Alliance 1d ago
We never see the actual damage because they probably forgot to add it in tbh.
Plus isn't polar ice caps melting basically one of the things associated with global warming irl, think of the devastation
It's a Naga's world thats for sure
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u/twisty125 Flowerpicker Clan 1d ago
It's just like saying Sylvanas is the best character because they forgot to make her be heroic or something. If they forgot, they forgot and it stops being evidence.
Illidan's spell didn't melt the ice caps, and I'm unsure where that was stated. It was magic being targeted specifically at the Frozen Throne, enough to crack it - not like a Helldivers Orbital Laser sweeping across the land, melting the ice.
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u/KingAnumaril For the Alliance 1d ago
Illidan Srormrage: At Dalaran, I attempted to use the Eye of Sargeras to melt away the polar icecaps surrounding the Icecrown Glacier. If the spell had succeeded, the Lich King would have been vanquished forever.
Lady Vashj: But the cursed night elves intervened.
Illidan Stormrage: And the spell went awry. Given my failure, I fled to this desolate place to evade Kil'jaeden's wrath. Now, if I am to remain here in exile, we will need to ensure that Kil'jaeden's agents have been cleansed from the land.
Okay so maybe Azeroth is a bit different and maybe I should check my geo books (was never good with subject) but doesn't polar ice caps melting and melting fast while at it basically means flood the world like it's in tbe bible.
Idk I feel comfortable standing with Malfurion here. I've lost my taste for eager collateral damage.
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u/twisty125 Flowerpicker Clan 1d ago
Even that's not correct either, 'melt away the polar ice caps surrounding the Icecrown Glacier' doesn't do anything to the Lich King, who's in the Frozen Throne embedded in Icecrown Glacier. He's aiming for the Frozen Throne and the Lich King, not creating a moat.
Like I did look this up and it's in game, but that makes zero sense with what we knew of the Frozen Throne at the time.
Even if Malfurion's anxieties about the land being damaged are true, the land can be mended and life will go on - just as Druidism teaches. The Lich King staying alive is far too dangerous as we've seen, the only reason our world survived was because of a hail mary deus ex machina from The Light, something Malfurion has no clue about.
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u/KingAnumaril For the Alliance 1d ago
I don't know man. Personally I think there is something interesting there speaking to Illidan's near apathetic recklessness concerning the world after his exile, and Malfurion moving to protect the world from that and live to fight the Lich King another day, but I have a few other issues with TFT already.
Prevention is the best cure for harm.
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u/twisty125 Flowerpicker Clan 1d ago
I mean, he's very much into the "do things to attack/weaken the Legion', and that counts considering the Lich King was a Legion creation who could both very easily come back under control, and could fuck everyone if left to his own devices.
Prevention is the best cure for harm.
Exactly what I'm saying, why let the psychically powerful Lich King who can control beings on other continents, live in isolation instead of get rid of him. Malfurion saw the Scourge, he fought them in defense of Hyjal. But he's cool with the person in charge of the Scourge living. He puts in exactly zero effort to do anything about the Lich King after being told what he interrupted, just goes to sleep. Isn't that a bit sus?
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u/Shelldin 18h ago
I feel like that line of thinking only really works if you believe Malfurion is lying. But as it's portrayed in game the world is literally crying out in pain. It's quite a visceral reaction.
One could agrue that it's worth the risk to take down the lich king, but the fact that Kiljaeden, Sargeras's right hand man, is telling Illidan, a part demon magic addict, to use the eye of sargeras, a incredibly powerful demon artifact, to perform this ritual doesn't exactly scream "good idea".
Illidan wasn't going after the lich king cause it was the right thing to do. He was doing Kiljaeden's laundry. Neither of them cared about the consequences so I'm more inclined to trust Malfurion's judgment on this one.
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u/twisty125 Flowerpicker Clan 11h ago
The big thing for me is that we see no damage done at all anywhere, except where the spell was hitting on the Frozen Throne. It's an anxiety thing, "I think this will happen, because I think it will". The land was crying out to the guy who talks to the land, but we have no evidence damage was done, then, or in WoW. Illidan would've been bad if he had stopped Malfurion from summoning wisps to stop Archimonde, because of the later ramifications he believed would happen, right?
But again, like, why is Malfurion aligning himself with the Scourge at that point. He knows what they are, that they fought and killed Night Elves to help Archimonde, he sees the Scourge attacking Illidan's forces. His info about Illidan's plan is from the mass murderer lady insane jailer who covered up Tyrande's alleged death from him (out of revenge because Tyrande killed a bunch of her friends and coworkers). But he's like "yeah dude I GOTTA stop my brother from fighting the Scourge, the people that attacking Hyjal". Kil'jaedan doesn't even fit into the picture because no character aside from Illidan, knows about him.
It's just really really dumb on his part.
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u/Shelldin 18h ago
Illidan in warcraft 3 lore wasn't an anti hero. He's the betrayer cause (in wc3 lore) he joined azshara to protect the well of eternity cause he was addicted to the power. No secret or alternative motives.
He's not pure evil and wasn't loyal to the legion. If anything he was loyal to the well of eterntiy. He wants to help his people and the ones he loves but, at least before legion retcons, he'd give it all up if the alternative was giving up his source of magic.
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u/Outrageous-Syrup-568 1d ago
I didnt explain myself well enough. The problem is what they did with ilidan in tbc. They turned him from an anti hero into a straight up villain.
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u/Insensata Mr. Bigglesworth enjoyer 1d ago edited 1d ago
Do people really think that if a character tells that all denizens of the world will bow to him and that he's their lord and master, and after a few years we see him as a cruel tyrant hated by the denizens it's horrible writing and a callous retcon? People really should replay TFT with better attention and see what he says and does, and he's nothing but powerhungry KJ's treacherous small fry.
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u/KingAnumaril For the Alliance 1d ago
And it works because Arthas is but another pawn in Ner'zhul and KJ's game, fighting over the ashes.
Two deeply fucked up people who made terrible mistakes, racing towards the end.
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u/Ready_Kiwi5545 1d ago edited 1d ago
His lore in Legion is fucking awesome and worth looking into. I'm particularly fond of the "Rejection of the Gift" cutscene. Highly recommend giving it a watch if you haven't yet.
Edit: I don't care if you disagree, Legion Illidan was peak and I'll kill on this hill over it.
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u/Ruuubs 1d ago
Legion Illidan would’ve been far peaker if Blizzard went “yeah, he did all that, he became a power hungry asshole… But then when he died he realised “oh shit, maybe exploiting everyone so I can claim all the power and glory for protecting them just makes everyone hate me”
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u/Ready_Kiwi5545 1d ago
Eh. Not every character needs to be self-aware to that degree. One of Illidan's major persistent flaws is that he doesn't seem to know or care about how he's perceived by his allies.
That's what allows him to be confident in his self-worth to the point where he'll kill to preserve what he sees as his essential Illidan-ness, and that's what makes him a compelling character.
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u/amberith 1d ago
expansion is not retcon, no?
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u/OkNet5060 1d ago
When it changes past established stuff, yes
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u/amberith 1d ago
what was changed?
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u/OkNet5060 1d ago
Illidan is not a hero. Hes not misunderstood. He was a power hungry narcissistic douche who betrayed everyone he got affiliated with like the nelfs, highborne, legion, then the nelfs again and after being set free, the nelfs once more and legion twice after that. Hes a cool dude and my favorite part of tft, but hes not the good guy and definitely not a saviour. Just an arrogant man with lots of mistakes
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u/amberith 1d ago
nobody said he's a good guy, not even legion proposed hes a hero
he just do whatever he thinks is better for whatever reason. Legion lore didn't deny it, neither Chronicles, literally nobody said hes hero, he looks like a good fractal for Sargeras, pretty sure they even become the one as it supposed to be in Legion
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u/KingAnumaril For the Alliance 1d ago
Ok but what if what he thinks isn't actually better at all? Like the whole keruffle with the Eye?
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u/Ruuubs 1d ago
In TFT Illidan famously says that his two driving forces are his love of power and Tyrande (which is well attested by what we see). And it was made explicit in the TBC era online encyclopaedia that Illidan’s service to KJ was about protecting his own ass
So when Legion comes along and says “actually, the only thing Illidan cared about was destroying the Burning Legion” it’s pretty obviously a retcon. Doubly so if you realise that it was almost certainly cribbed from Maiev’s RPG description
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u/amberith 1d ago
So he served him to protect himself to gather more power that he likes to defeat Legion?
There is no way you will say something I have three driving forces, Tyranda, my addiction to magic and my hatred to Legion... Oh, hi, KJ, how're you
Ofc they didn't think that time that he will be like that but there is no retcon tbh
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u/Shelldin 18h ago
Not sure about being retconned from TBC or not but he was definitely retconned from Wc3
"Knowing that the Well's destruction would prevent him from ever wielding magic again, Illidan selfishly abandoned the group and set out to warn the high-borne of Furion's plan. Due to the madness brought on by his addiction and the stinging resentment towards his brother's affair with Tyrande, Illidan felt no remorse at betraying Furion and siding with Azshara and her ilk. Above all else, Illidan vowed to protect the Well's power by any means necessary"
In all the lore from wc3 and its manual does not mention wanting to gain power of the legion to stop the legion. When the demons were first summoned he gave up magic and helped Tyrande and Malfurion for a little bit, but as soon as the plan was to destroy the Well he flipped instantly.
He's not evil outright but his desire for power is (was in wc3) purely to fuel his own addiction. If he could help his people with it great, but if he has to choose, he chooses power.
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u/SuperSaiga 1d ago edited 1d ago
Really depends on which version of Illidan you're talking about.
For the novels, specifically, since you mentioned those: he wants the credit and glory for being the one to stop the Legion. That's why he keeps it a secret, he doesn't want anyone else taking over his plan or ruining it for him. He lets this slip toward the end when he's explaining himself to Tyrande (well, ranting more like it).
Edit: consistent across most versions of his character, Illidan thinks he has the best ideas and plans, and feels that he hasn't been given the opportunity to prove himself. He doesn't consider his own plans could fail on his own, and telling other people about them would not benefit him, only increase the risk that they jeopardize his great plans.
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u/TheRobn8 1d ago edited 1d ago
He originally sold the kaldorei out , then it got changed to him trying to play 10d chess. To be fair, he has always been written as being self righteous, and thinking he can do anything, so its makes sense he told no one. We see this in the legion questline that tried to "save" his image
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u/Shelldin 18h ago edited 18h ago
TLDR: In the original lore (pre any retcons) he betrayed them purely cause he's a magic junky and didn't want the Well to be destroyed. Warns Azshara and tons of Night Elves die as a result. Absolutely no altruistic or secret purpose.
Broke out my old warcraft 3 manual to give his original, now very retconned, lore:
Furion, a scholar, had been studying the Well along with other priests and mages. Illidan learned the same magic as the high-born. Furion started to notice the corrupting effect using the Well's power was having on the high-borne but didn't suspect how terrible things were about to get.
War of the Ancient premise is mostly the same. High-borne doing a lot of magic, sets off Sargeras's spidey-sense, convinces the high-borne to open a portal for him and the legion. Demons invade.
Furion becomes the leader of the lower class fighting the high-borne. He convinces Illidan to forsake the high-borne magic (for now). Furion, Illidan, and Tyrande go find Cenarius to help them. They gather a army of trees and dragons and such.
Love triangle exists. That makes Illidan the big sad but:
"His [Illidan's] heartache was nothing compared to the pain of his magical addiction..."
High-borne getting ready for Sarg summoning ritual. Furion decides to destroy the Well of Eternity.
This is where the Betrayal happens (and it is unequivocally a betrayal. No "for the greater good" back then):
"Knowing that the Well's destruction would prevent him from ever wielding magic again, Illidan selfishly abandoned the group and set out to warn the high-borne of Furion's plan. Due to the madness brought on by his addiction and the stinging resentment towards his brother's affair with Tyrande, Illidan felt no remorse at betraying Furion and siding with Azshara and her ilk. Above all else, Illidan vowed to protect the Well's power by any means necessary"
Furion's forces took massive losses because of this betrayal. Illidan was "convinced that the demons would crush the night elves' civilization" so he filled the vials of water from the well to keep for himself.
Good guys win. Well implodes sundering happens. Illidan made new well cause he needs his fix. Cenarius and Furion seal him up "to remain chained and powerless until the end of time"
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u/Proudnoob4393 1d ago
Honesty Betrayer is such a common thing to be called in WoW. Gul’dan, Deathwing, Arugal, Sylvanas, Darkhan, the list goes on
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u/Right_Comb4885 1d ago
Pretty sure Illidan pretended to join the Legion to figure out how to destroy it. Then he created the second Well of Eternity, betraying his people. He's the kind of person to say, "if you want something done right, you have to do it yourself". He's willing to do everything and anything to destroy the Legion because he knows they are only following Sargarus because he wants to destroy everything to stop the Void Lords. If there's no universe to feast on the Void Lords will starve.
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u/zennim 1d ago
Illidan betrays a Lot of people, It is not just one time
He looks like betrays to infiltrate the legion, then he betrays the legion, then he betrays his people again by getting the bottles for the wells, then he betrays his people again when he consumed the skull of gul dan, then he tried to betray the legion again, then he betrays akama.
He betrays everyone man
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u/Eastgaard 1d ago
Simply put? It was a retcon.
At the time of the original trilogy, he did not have the ulterior motive of fighting the Burning Legion. It wasn't until Legion that Blizzard chose to add that element to Illidan's character.
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u/Professional-Tank848 1d ago
There's a few reasons:
as another commenter has pointed out, TBC (despite various people acting like the older lore was the greatest writing of all time) lore was an absolute mess. Very fun, but messy. So, in general, a lot of things will feel incoherent when compared to other stuff.
Illidan, unironically, believes himself to be the hero and anime protagonist of any and all things. There's no time to tell people what's going on; he must save the day now.
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u/KingAnumaril For the Alliance 1d ago
Honestly I kinda understand why Illidan became an enemy to us in TBC, in that his Fel Orcs troubled the Mag'har, Honor Hold and the Draenei and that mattered to Alliance and Horde. He was a selfish, slavering tyrant and yes that was in character of him, and it's in character for everyone else to declare open season on his ass.
It's why I despise Legion Illidan. He was never a damn messiah. I always have liked Demon Hunters though as a concept and I am quite fond of Altruis.
Just as KJ planned, of course. As for Kael, he kinda got done dirty but I can see a world where he fell – we just never got to see his side of it.
But what's there? Kirin Var and Netherstorm as a whole, the attack on Shatt, the defeat at Icecrown, continuing addiction and decaying so much in morality that he backs the greater power.
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u/BellacosePlayer The Anti-Baine 1d ago
It's why I despise Legion Illidan. He was never a damn messiah. I always have liked Demon Hunters though as a concept and I am quite fond of Altruis.
Preach.
Illidan as begrudging ally? Fine.
Illidan as super savior when the Illidari weren't that important outside of uncovering disguised demons due to our factions having plot mandated incompetence? Naaaaaaaah.
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u/Upper-Philosophy2376 1d ago
He's been a double agent multiple times. Joined Sargeras to gain power and betray him, but in so doing seemed to have betrayed the night elves, joined Azshara to betray her, later he stole well of eternity water and thus betrayed the night elves, in War3 was conscripted by the legion again and made a token effort to kill the lich king, then betrayed the legion again.
Edit: I forgot about when he sacrificed all his mage followers when he was a moon guard too, probably also counts as betrayal.
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u/twisty125 Flowerpicker Clan 1d ago
I will say, it was a real effort, Ner'zhul even knows he's going to die - if not for Malfurion deciding the Lich King must live and stopping Illidan's attack.
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u/DaveLesh 1d ago
The Legion has eyes everywhere. The Legion is quite powerful. Illidan pulled all the betrayals and stunts he did because he didn't want one side or the other fully embracing him. He didn't want his grand plan to stop them foiled (though we adventurers set him back). He earned the ire of the Legion and his brother, but he believed it was necessary.
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u/PossessionNo5679 5h ago
You can argue pro Illidan and con Illidan.
You could argue that he was manipulated by Xavius to hate his brother and betray everything he stood for. With those manipulations in mind he wandered off to the battlefield, got stuff to make Azshara happy and hailed for her palace. As soon as he reached and entered it, he was ensnared by the Legions spells to entrance the Elves. Then most likely Xavius spell starts to fade, and he regained part of his senses. But then he was already brought before Sargeras, where he needed to hide his change of mind. He became infused with demon energy and was therefore somehow branded as a demon.
Other way is: he had a bad childhood. He was basically told since he was a kid that he'll be something important, a powerful wizard or something like that! And he started to believe it. He embodied that. He wanted to be the first druid. But then his brother showed more talent. Then he wanted to be the sorcerer of Black Rook Hold. But his brother was better again. He led the Moon guard to impress Rhonin and Ravencrest, and did it good (in his own eyes)! And yet again he was denied of his fate! So basically he tried everything he could think of. But he ended with his position striped from him by an outsider! His status revoked by the man he looked up to! And his love taken away by a brother who always outshined him and who didn't even realise that she loves him!!! So he took the only route he saw to fullfill his destiny! And he wanted to do it on his own this time. No brother to steal his spotlight, no Rhonin to take away his powers! No Krasus telling him to control himself!!
I personally believe in the second story. Makes all too much more sense with the whole X'era thing about destiny. He did horrible things, believing in his destiny dictated by his golden eyes. Then he had 10.000 years to ponder about it. In Warcraft 3 he even admits to some of his mistakes at the end of the TFT campaign! But then he does it again! Trying to save the world by all means necessary. And again in BC!
I suppose, death opened his eyes at least a little bit (again, X'era). But he is still this guy, basically forcing us to deal with Argus right after we kill Kil'Jaeden
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u/Nick-uhh-Wha 1d ago
Look at it this way: what does illidan DO as a character that defines him n sets him apart from his 'good' brother?
He sides with the enemy, infiltrates them, and tries to destroy them from within.
You could think this is exclusive to Sargeras n the legion, but considering this is how he operates and his original enemy even before Sargeras was....Azshara...
It's really just illidan bouncing back n forth between who is more of a threat. After Azshara fell off the imperial throne it was Sargeras...as she amassed power again she became more useful to work with
BET at the end of last titan when Azshara is born as Azeroth with old gods buried in her black heart--itll be her again. And what better excuse for illidan to use Sargeras this time--conveniengly the last titan left to defend against the ultimate darkness in our history, and also the one who tried to destroy us all because of the dark potential he saw in Azeroth and life(us/Azshara)
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u/mindotaur 1d ago
He was also exiled by Malfurion after consuming the Skull of Gul’dan, which point he has no real reason or allegiance to tell anyone of his plan because he’s a loan actor
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u/Suspicious_Rub857 1d ago
He’s that kind of person who thinks he can solve everything alone and he’s doing “the necessary sacrifices”