The tourists cannot image that some can enjoy the game without minmaxing everything to the last percentile. It is a lost cause. OR god forbid, even READING THE QUEST TEXT.
These people are cancer for every MMO and i really hope the dungeon nerfs drive them away with every other "muh efficiency" bot.
I've been playing Warcraft since Warcraft1. The Logs part is the exact part that ruined this game as whole. Imagine comparing logs for bosses with one mechanic
Someone is forced out? Last I've heard dungeon quests xp is even increased. On the other hand boosting through dungeons by spamming the same one again and again is dead. Did you meant that as a forcing? :>
No but to most people, not being rewarded for your time invested in something is not very fun. Even if you are a casual like me who is not trying to race to 60.
And some people’s (me) favorite activity is doing dungeons, so obviously they will be sad that they will not be rewarded properly for their time.
Boosting is a higher level player, typically a mage, clearing the mobs from a dungeon for a "boost" of player experience, and you pay said mage gold per run.
Dungeon spamming is when a group of 5 friends gets in a discord call and runs the same dungeon over and over again singing dumb shit and progressing at about the same pace as quests.
The ONLY TIMES I've seen "dungeon spam" be the meta, is during TBC and during the SM spamming runs in SoD.
I honestly have no idea how common boosting is used. I play to enjoy the game, which is focused on dungeons. New dungeons was one of the selling points of Forever, it seems strange they only want me running them one time per toon. SFK has a handful of class quests for alliance, otherwise nothing. Make more dungeon quests, make more dungeons, or let people run dungeons multiple times for more than a pittance of exp. Don't really care how it is done, but dungeons are the draw for a not insignificant part of Forever's target audience.
Not everyone that likes spamming dungeons is using boosting. Can’t they fix boosting in a different way without nerfing some people’s favorite play styles?
They have, boosting is already nerfed. Mobs dont give xp if theyre grey to anyone and anti kite kicks in after a while. These people are arguing against a boogeyman that doesn't exist in forever.
And that would be fine if they provided other things like dungeons do. All you get from open world questing is XP. You don't get an uninterruptible, uncontested levelling experience. You don't get BIS in every gear slot constantly. You only get XP.
BiS gear, no interruptions to levelling due to overpopulation, and no PvP interactions, which I agree is only one mode, but time and time again it is the massively more popular realm type, so it is relevant to the discussion.
>BiS gear
So you arent aware of the crafting changes in Forever or that many quest rewards are pretty damn good? Okay then, besides even if this were purely true. Why do you care if they stay inside instances.
Even more so, its leveling in classic. Who cares about BiS gear.
>no interruptions to levelling due to overpopulation
Blizzard is doing sharding, no need to worry about that even in the direst of circumstancs.
>and no PvP interactions
Have you heard of PvE ruleset? This is not an argument.
To the first line, the crafting changes aren't open world specific and similar to how I believe dungeons should be, are a cost tradeoff. You have to spend time levelling a profession to do them, and then earning merchants favour for the recipes, which is a trade of time and XP for gear.
It's not about caring for BiS gear, it's that your levelling speed is directly tied to your DPS and survivability and by extension your gear. We can't be in a thread arguing about dungeon XP and saying who cares about gear.
And areas will absolutely be bottle necked even with sharding. We literally know this.
but to your last point, okay we can buff the XP back to it was before on PVE servers and you can play on those. Happy now?
>You have to spend time levelling a profession to do them
You have to spend time clearing dungeons, this isnt an argument for anything when professions now give player power buffs therefore being direct progress to your character. You wouldnt get this progress from dungeons.
> it's that your levelling speed is directly tied to your DPS and survivability and by extension your gear.
Eh, classic is so easy to level that you only die if you fucked up bad.
>We can't be in a thread arguing about dungeon XP and saying who cares about gear.
Even at best how much would constant BiS gear improve your leveling speed when questing, 50%? Because the dungeon nerfs are 70% so it would really need to be 70% faster for these to be equivalent.
>but to your last point, okay we can buff the XP back to it was before on PVE servers and you can play on those. Happy now?
Yes and I dont think it takes anything away from anyone.
You get XP from clearing dungeon, you don't get xp from levelling professions. This is absolutely an argument. You are making a tradeoff if you are levelling your profession. Pre nerf dungeons meant you didn't have to make a compromise for anything.
And I don't necessarily mean in how much you die in terms of BiS gear, it's about how long it takes to kill a mob or how many you can kill consecutively before needing to eat food or drink. And its not just about how fast either, its about when two players reach max level or just before max level and are grinding prebis, the player who is in dungeon gear is absolutely going to be at an advantage in getting into groups compared to the player in an open world set.
But yeah, you can have dungeons giving 1m xp a clear on the pve ruleset for all I care.
What is interrupting you? Mob tagging? Group up! Aren't you supposed to be social? You get quest rewards, and you are doing an easier form of content so why would you even need better gear?
Strawman. I and many others don't want to level entirely in that room.
In fact, it's impossible to even enter that room until you're level 13. It may be possible to get to level 24 by never leaving that room but that's as far as you get.
he said, gazing into the mirror sadly. His daily affirmations were everything to him. It was only through this ritual that he was able to overcome the overwhelming shortcomings he felt in his life.
I'm glad you do! I hope Forever builds upon all pillars of classic and gives multiple paradigms for meaningfully playing our characters. I do not enjoy PVP, but I would never campaign to see it removed. There is a large community that derives most of their enjoyment from that aspect of the game. All I want is to the see the pillars expanded, not torn down.
It's no longer worth it a second time or ever again. Just like if they had reversed it and removed 76% of the xp from outdoor mobs and quests, they would no longer be worth the time either. But you knew that already.
Your comment is like asking why nobody keeps squeezing an orange. I'm sure you'd say "YoU Dont LiKe sQUEeZING THe oRANGE yOuF akEr!!"
Eh if open world mobs and quests gave the best gear in the game, prevented you from being ganked, didn't have any competition from other players, there would at least still be benefits to it if it gave less XP.
The issue is dungeon spammers want it all and aren't willing to give anything up. Open world levelling has downsides like rarer and worse upgrades and the ability to be ganked on a PVP server or potentially have to wait 10 minutes for an escort quest to respawn because there are 100 players around you. It only makes sense that it should at least provide something over dungeon spamming.
I'm not sure how this is a remotely controversial take.
Dawg. Dungeons have always been slower xp than questing unless you are in an optimized group.
It was at least meaningful XP. Some good gear. And fun to coordinate with multiple people. Pair that with being able to actually play my role?
No one would have bitched if it was "dungeon XP is nerfed by 75% on subsequent daily runs of a dungeon". The issue with this change is that for all of us pug healers. Dungeons no longer give any meaningful sense of progress after the first run ever. So why do them more than once?
We still went out and did questing. Because it was more XP, had good quest rewards. And allowed us to see more parts of the world.
Dungeons already gave up XP to questing. Now they are just XP worthless.
And being ganked is irrelevant. Most people play on PVE worlds.
EDIT: And a big problem with this change is that any argument against it is met with the "oh you just wanted to spam dungeons" nah dawg. Im a pug healer. Ya know. Like 95% of all healers. We just want to get meaningful XP from playing our damn role.
I just fundamentally don’t agree that during launch periods dungeons were worse xp. Im not against finding a solution that harms people doing an odd repeat dungeon here and there less than currently.
Did you ever pug dead mines? Mate. That dungeon averages close to 2 hours and 4 full wipes when all 5 players are randos. Dps not waiting for the tank to stack things up. Blasting different mobs so aggro gets ripped. No coordination. Etc.
Dont get me started on the last section. The amount of DPS pulling the patrol on the boat and me jumping on the wheel to res the entire party? Every. Single. Time.
Dungeoning has always been slower with full pug groups.
Even today. Go boot up classic. Level a priest to 17. Go do dead mines. Full pug. Do 3 runs. Check the XP gains. Just literally SWP and dot down some mobs at your level after solo. Dont group. Just solo clear them. Should be able to do 2 at a time. Do this on Westfall (a PVE server). Dude you are easily 3-4x the XP from that farm session vs the dungeons. and that is even without quest rewards
But we're not just talking about PUGs of randos. Balancing in a game has to account for all extremes. You can't just balance around bill who doesn't know where his heal spells are on his keybinds and his party wipes 20 times clearing one dungeon.
Sure, i'd love a way that would impact the people dungeon spamming in groups and left alone the inefficient randoms, but I haven't seen any way suggested to do that.
Look back at any release of classic and look who got world first 60. It was never an optimizer 5 man stack spamming dungeons. It was always either solo or duo mostly grinding open world and/or questing. If dungeon spam would actually be better those speedrunners / wolrd first runners would do it.
They are also the most difficult content to do at their level. THAT is why the rewards are higher. You are coordinating five people to do more challenging content. As far as hiding....no one gives a damn about you ganking. PvP is a sidequest.
Open world questing IS magnitudes easier and can be done pretty much at your leisure. Escort quests are frustrating, but that is ONLY during launch periods when so many people are funneled through the same areas.
So really...open world questing provides most everything over dungeons aside from loot, which is shared. Whatever quest rewards you get are yours and yours alone.
Levelling dungeons don't require insane coordinating and are not challenging. Please stop LARPing. Dungeon loot being shared literally means nothing when you're dungeon spamming because everyone will get everything anyway.
And pretending that there won't be huge bottlenecks out in the open world is just delusional and if your counter to that is it's just the launch period, then we can raise the dungeon XP sometime after the launch period.
They require five people and three roles. They require those same people to physically get to the dungeon, which at times can be a time investment in itself. Don't be reductionist. Dungeons ARE more challenging than questing, by design, hence why the rewards are greater. Nerfing the exp in them is simply unnecessary.
Physically getting to the dungeon is a one time cost and it’s baked into the XP. It’s like me saying oh but you have to move between quest givers in the open world. Dungeons are flat out not challenging though. I’m not saying questing is more challenging but both things are not challenging so I don’t really see the point of pointing out one of the non challenging things is slightly more challenging than the other.
"The issue is dungeon spammers want it all and aren't willing to give anything up."
"I'm not sure how this is a remotely controversial take."
What's controversial is you deeming me and everyone else like me as a dungeon spammer. I am not. I just want the same xp from a mob inside the dungeon as I would get outside the dungeon, should I make the outrageous choice to run a dungeon a second time. Or even a third. Oh my god, the horror!
Nobody is demanding the best XP or demanding dungeon spam back.
They're asking for a reasonable amount of XP (75% of questing XP) so they can level by doing dungeons.
It wouldn't affect you whatsoever, as you can still level optimally and efficiently by questing. But I understand its not good enough for some, and they can't be happy unless questing is multiple times faster than dungeons (which it currently is).
If you think its bad for players to feel forced to dungeon spam because it was a tiny bit better in organized groups, you should think its bad for quests to be ahead by an even greater margin.
If you think the dungeon exp nerf is good then you’re just wrong. Funneling players to play the game a certain way is always bad. The only reason people like you support this is because you feel left behind if people are “spamming” dungeons. Players will be 60 first week regardless of dungeon grinding. Next complaint will be “push the raids back”.
It's got nothing to do with feeling left behind, I just don't believe that one type of content should be the best for everything while levelling. The nerf is a bit overboard, but compromises needed to be made. Just because it's your preferred levelling method, it doesn't mean it should be the best in all categories. That's also funnelling players to play the game a certain way. It's just that you didn't mind it because it was funnelling towards your preferred playstyle.
Everyone in the region is on the same server with stacks and stacks of shards. “More people out in the world” is the awful argument of someone who thinks he’s talking about a dead server.
so you agree with the most lazy solution to that aka flat nerfing dung xp by 75%?🤣 wow crowd can be pleased by the most laughable problem solving really lol
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u/Nice-Background890 7h ago
How is them reverting it stopping anyone from questing?