(Hated)changing somenthing to be more "progressive" ends up being a bad thing

[u/Morr4Seiya]

Now to be clear,i am not one of these "anti-woke" losers that complain some people exist,and i am also not the type to complain about changing somenthing in a new version or adaptation,however there are cases where it did ended up being a bad idea.

-In the anime of Cowboy Bebop there is the character Gren,despite being short lived the character is very memorable specially thanks to his tragic story.Basically his story was that he was a soldier from the titan war who was a great friend with Vicious(the main bad guy)after the war he was emprisioned thanks to Vicious who testified against him and he was forced to take a experimental drug that caused him hormonal problems,giving him a feminine appearence and even breasts.

In the Netflix live action,for some reasons they decided Gren was going to be non-binary,which wouldn't be a problem(some people believe he was gay in the anime)if it wasn't for the fact that they also removed all the nuances and complexities that made the character memorable and interesting,instead of a tragic war veteran that was betrayed and had his body changed against his will,Gren is just kinda there.

-The original Rugrats cartoon had the couple Betty and Howard,Betty was a big and masculine woman while Howard was a smaller and nervous man,it was a genuine interesting relationship that stood out from the other couples who were the standard straight couple.

In the new series however they replaced Howard with a woman named Trish,two things,first off why?What was the problem with having a woman being the stronger in a straight relationship?Second why does Hollywood seem to think that every tomboy or masculine woman is a lesbian?

Overall not the worst thing but it is jarring that they had a gender reverse roled that was progressive and decided that wasn't enough.

-Oh man,this one pisses me off the most so i am gonna have to break it down

So back in the late 80s and 90s there was this anime called Saint Seiya also knows as Knights of the zodiac,it tells the story of knights who fight for the Goddess Athena to protect earth,being divided in the golden,silver and bronze knights,the anime was a huge hit in latin america and Europe and while it floped in the US it still has a loyal fanbase.

Being a fan myself i can't recommend it enough,now granted the story does have a fair share of flaws,and that's because the author was honestly just making stuff up as he went along(also a lot of side characters are poorly used or even forgotten about)still it is a great story you should check out

But then a couple of years back Netflix got the rights and decided to a 3D reboot,in this reboot they decided to make the story more "american" to try to bring more american viewers,now i could go on and on a big rant about how that was a bad idea and the execution was so terrible that it made me want to strangle someone but this post is about one specific change.

So Saint Seiya has five main characters,those are Pegasus Seiya,Dragon Shiryu,Cygnus Hyoga,Phoenix Ikki and finally Andromeda Shun.

While the other four characters were the standard masculine and brute male characters who were always ready to throw punches,Shun was smaller,more sensitive and even feminine looking,a pacifist who didn't liked fighting,but don't mistake that for weakness because Shun was loyal to his friends and was extremely powerful.

Then Netflix decided to change Shun into a girl named Shaun.

So wait,you have a male character who goes against every male stereotype and you turn him into just another generic female character?

When asked about it,the showrunner Eugene Son said he made that change because there was no girl in the group and having a all boys group wouldn't be acceptable nowadays

First off that's not true because Athena was also part of the main cast,yeah she wasn't the fighting type but she still helped quite a lot in the story even saving the knights on several occasions,second if you wanted to add a girl to the main group why not use Marin or Shaina?Hell,if you were going to change the story anyway why not turn Seiya sister into a knight?

Thankfully this monstrosity was cancelled(so much for trying to bring more fans)

[u/Silent_Biscotti_9832]

Severus Snape being black in the new Harry Potter tv show

Could have been anyone else. But they had to choose the guy who got hung from a tree, and was bullied by James, Peter, Sirius and Remus in the 1950s ish

[u/Go_Water_your_plants → u/Silent_Biscotti_9832]

I will Die on that hill: they should have made dumbledore black.

They could have leaned into it and he could have been absolutely dripped out in colourful (wizard version of) traditional African robes (I’m aware africa is not a country but multiple countries in Africa have cool traditional clothings so I don’t want to exclude possibilities just because im personally more familiar with the Nigerian drip)

Like fuck it, give him the accent too! How much better of a representation would it be if the most powerful wizard in the franchise was African

[u/the_sneaky_one123 → u/Go_Water_your_plants]

They did that with Kingsley Shacklebot in the movies. He was one of the most powerful Aurors and he robes that look like traditional west african robes.

[u/Go_Water_your_plants → u/the_sneaky_one123]

Yeah we were told he was powerful but he didn’t matter as a character. It felt very tokenized, like "see, they’re not all white, and he’s actually the most powerful Auror!! No we’re not gonna show it to you, it’s the thought that counts right?"

But yeah something like that. But up the wizard bullshit on his robe, since wizard are not supposed to look like muggles. look at Dumbledore in the first movie, he looks like damn saint-Nicholas, that’s fucking delightful

[u/Spurioun → u/Go_Water_your_plants]

But see, you need a black character to say "Damn, Dumbledore's got style" so that you know it's true.

[u/CJCroen1393 → u/Spurioun]

Which is worse because in the book, that line was said by a WHITE character!

[u/CJCroen1393 → u/Go_Water_your_plants]

To be fair, Kingsley dressed in business suits in the books. There is the matter of his name though...

[u/Rexlare → u/Go_Water_your_plants]

The only thing about him that I remember is him going, “I know you don’t like him, but you gotta admit. Dumbledore got style…”

[u/YouJellyFish → u/Go_Water_your_plants]

Uhhh in the books it's not just that we're "told he was a powerful character" he consistently wins in situations where others would just fold. The dude has one of the best winrates on the good side.

Though for some reason we keep being told that Moody is the strongest auror although we never see him do anything other than get his ass BEAT. Moody is a fraud, Kingsley is legit

[u/sbidlin → u/the_sneaky_one123]

Also, "Kingsley Shacklebolt" as a black character is peak Rowling idiocy lmao

[u/CJCroen1393 → u/sbidlin]

So many people try to justify it with the auror thing and I'm just like "Yeah, she introduced a LOT of aurors in book 5 right alongside him... why did she name the black guy 'Shacklebolt'?"

[u/LongJohnSelenium → u/CJCroen1393]

Because she basically named the cop 'Boss Handcuffs'.

Shacklebolt was an allusion to his profession not to the concept of black people being slaves. JKR is british, they don't have the same hyper sensitive hangups about that as americans do.

[u/Go_Water_your_plants → u/LongJohnSelenium]

I think JKR is a cunt as much as the next sensible person but I am on you on this one actually

I think not every body associates black people with chains, especially outside of America

[u/MarvelousThings07 → u/Go_Water_your_plants]

I thought race-swapping McGonagall could be interesting if done correctly.

[u/NinjaBreadManOO → u/MarvelousThings07]

Yeah, I feel like McGonagall would be a good option. Also oddly I can see Neville working too.

[u/Spurioun → u/NinjaBreadManOO]

Neville could be cool, but the fact that he fit all the traits of the chosen one prophecy but ended up not being the chosen one could make the narrative a bit gross. Plus, he gets pushed around a lot.

[u/Bloodyjorts → u/Spurioun]

Though one of the reasons he isn't the chosen one is because Voldemort didn't see himself in Neville; he chose Harry, who was closer to being a half-blood like himself, rather than a pureblood wizard.

The other reason is, of course, Snape and Lily's choices. The fact that Voldemort was legitimately going to spare Lily for Snape allowed her to sacrifice her life for Harry's, which is what prevented the killing curse from working (he was always going to kill James, so his death didn't offer Harry this protection). I suppose he could offer to spare Alice because "we need pureblood women to make more pureblood children", and if she refused (which she would have) that would cause the killing curse to rebound as well.

[u/Grosbie → u/Spurioun]

Neville is not possible because he is a pure blood from both sides of his parents. And you know what about the pure blood family? It connects to the Black family and most of the characters in the series are related to them somehow. You'll have to make everyone biracial at that point.

[u/Go_Water_your_plants → u/Grosbie]

But you could just have pure bloods for other parts of the world…

Like yes it’s an allegory for white supremacy, but it doesn’t need to be on the nose and actually include irl race into the pure blood schtick. The Blacks aren’t the ONLY pure blood family (that would bring some Targaryen implications)

[u/bobboman → u/Go_Water_your_plants]

did you read the books at all? it was heavily implied that every pure blood wizard in magical Britain were related to each other, Both Molly and Arther Weasley were related to the blacks and were noted somewhere on the tapestry of the black family tree, there is a reason the Weasleys were refered to as blood traitors

[u/Go_Water_your_plants → u/bobboman]

Well yeah I know it’s related because they marry each other and stuff

It’s still like… more than one family.

Like obviously pure wizards exist outside of the one British family. The Blacks didn’t fucking invent magic

[u/NinjaBreadManOO → u/bobboman]

Sure, but if we're bringing up the books I believe it's Arthur or Hagrid say's it's stupid because every "pure blood" family has a muggle if you look hard enough. Also as u/Go_Water_your_plants said maybe Neville's grandfather is just from an African pure blood family.

[u/NotNamedBort → u/MarvelousThings07]

Literally anyone other than Snape would have been a better choice. Maybe not Remus Lupin.

[u/therealfurryfeline → u/NotNamedBort]

What about Voldemort or the Malfoys?

[u/Eden_ITA → u/therealfurryfeline]

Ironically, Tom Riddle could work in some way: a black person that want a racial state is like an half-blood that want a pureblood society.

You can see the incoherence of the situation.

Edit - The Malfoy are too much linked to the "white aristocratic conservative family", making them not "almost comically white" sounds wrong

[u/ProfessorPhi → u/MarvelousThings07]

There's so much of the cast they could race swap and they always choose the ones with the worst implications.

[u/fedexpoopracer → u/MarvelousThings07]

a black person with a Scottish last name, that totally wasn't a thing during U.S. slavery days

[u/the_ghost_of_bob_ros → u/Go_Water_your_plants]

hey now gay and black? your going to break the minority report card these shows have.

your messing with the grading curve, next thing you know when hollywood has a 80's style friend group the main character won't be the generic brown haired white boy.

[u/LavishnessCurrent726 → u/the_ghost_of_bob_ros]

It's only gay if you want him to be, not canonized.

[u/maladaptivedreamer → u/Go_Water_your_plants]

I didn’t even consider Dumbledore. That could have been dope. I feel like his dress was always understated in the films compared to the books.

If you ever want some cool wizard diversity, read Alexandria Quick and the Thorn Circle fanfiction. It’s basically American Hogwarts with tons of diverse characters from all over. The witch from Uganda is sooo cool. And the author makes magic from different countries/regions feel distinct and part of their culture.

[u/T8-TR → u/Go_Water_your_plants]

I'd take a raceswap of just about any professor other than Snape. That just seems like a very bad move unless they're plotting a clever twist.

[u/Iamabrawler → u/Go_Water_your_plants]

Would you really trust Rowling to do that and not give him a stupid or problematic name à la Cho Chang?

Seriously, the other most powerful Black wizard in the series is named Kingsley Shacklebolt.

[u/laurel_laureate → u/Iamabrawler]

Ugh... not the Cho Chang nonsense again.

Fun fact-

Cho Chang is a completely normal Asian name.

Chang is the Anglicized version of the Chinese surname Zhang and it is how Zhang is spelled in Taiwan.

Zhang/Chang is the third most common surname in China.

Hong Kong also sometime uses this spelling of Chang, and as it so happens Hong Kong was under the 100 Year Lease to the UK until 1997.

When that lease was up irl, some 50k Chinese immigrated to UK.

So Cho's family could very easily be a magical family that emigrated from Magical China to Magical Britain or they could be from Taiwan.

---

As for her first name Cho, Chinese first names are much less standardized than elsewhere and, as long as it isn't their surname or the name of a family member, the parents have a lot of freedom of what to choose.

No Chinese reading of the name Cho was given in the series, but there are tons of names that could read that way.

---

And iirc nothing in the series even states that Cho Chang is fully Chinese- she could be of mixed race.

In Japanese, "Chou" means butterfly and is a more traditional traditional feminine first name.

Which could even match well with Chang, because among several things Chang can mean "to draw a bow/to open or spread", and other surnames also pronounced Zhang/Chang can mean "brilliant".

---

It's also worth noting that the whole reason people think Cho Chang's name is racist is because if the racist "ching chong" insult.

But that is very much an American thing, that iirc started in San Francisco when lots of Chinese immigrants started coming over.

The UK does not really have the same association with "ching chong" and, as explained above, it's an actual irl name.

And it wouldn't even be a problem if it wasn't an irl real name!

After all, this is the series with obviously not irl real names like Severus Snape and Luna Lovegood and Albus Dumbledore and Bellatrix LeStrange.

---

So, in this case JK wasn't being racist.

The ignorant ones, that are sometimes not-quite-racist, are those that spread the whole "Cho Chang is a racist name" misinformation.

[u/Alaea → u/laurel_laureate]

Encountered at least 2 Cho Changs as named customers at work, one a student from China and another a long-term UK citizen. This "argument" has always pissed me off. Same with the Patel twins. Just Americans moralizing and projecting their own cultural history on everyone else as usual, especially considering these only became "points" after Rowling became persona non grata. Didn't seem to be an issue back then did they?

The UK does not really have the same association with "ching chong" and, as explained above, it's an actual irl name.

Agree with everything you said, but this point.

It definitely is a racist stereotype here - albeit a pretty rare one due to the relatively small population of east Asians. Little Britain sorta touched on it. iirc the stereotype has its origin in Fu Manchu which is definitely British.

It's also pretty dated - only people I know that did it are boomer or Gen X (who hangs around with a lot of boomers...).

[u/laurel_laureate → u/Alaea]

I hadn't been thinking about the secretly-actually-a-hero villain Fu Manchu (whose "dastardly" goal was to stop imperialism and fascism), but you are right that it's definitely a display of early 1900s racism against Asians and the Chinese in the UK.

Though Idk how likely it would have been for a typical British housewife writing a book to have heard it, right around the time when the internet was just getting popular and becoming more accessible to Joe Public (late 90s).

Personally, I find it much more likely JK was just messing around with Chinese naming conventions to make another alliterative and memorable name, like she did with so many other names in the series.

[u/Alaea → u/laurel_laureate]

Yeah the "ching-chong" stereotype is much more a working class down-the-pub thing. Same vein as the Indian/Pakistani stereotypes, that just weren't proper form for the middle classes given how basic and "uncouth" the humour is.

Rowling's very much an upper middle class type who probably wouldn't have been exposed to it.

[u/Iamabrawler → u/laurel_laureate]

Okay, so I misspoke! My bad! My intention was not to imply racism, especially in bringing up Shacklebolt afterwards (which still has very unfortunate implications).

What I think makes the name Cho Chang problematic is that, in a franchise packed with crazy and impossible names with second meanings, that Rowling chose both Cho and Chang, which as your post says are two very common names in Asian countries, would be like a non-English TV show adding a character named John Smith.

It reeks of Rowling possibly having neither the interest, nor the push, to give the character a unique name like she had done for everyone else, like it was just a quick fill-in because the character needed a name.

[u/laurel_laureate → u/Iamabrawler]

I disgree with the idea that it isn't unique.

It's culturally authentic and alliterative.

One translation of Cho Chang would basically be Brilliant Butterfly.

And that fits perfectly with other names in the series, such as Luna Lovegood's alliteration and Seamus Finnigan which is about as generic of an Irish name as one can get.

[u/Iamabrawler → u/laurel_laureate]

Alright, then I'm wrong there too! Statements retracted.

[u/laurel_laureate → u/Iamabrawler]

Sorry if I came on a bit strong in explaining this.

Cho Chang and the Patil Twins being labeled "racist names" is just one of my pet peeves.

I even know a Parvati Patil irl (that's in her 60s so wasn't named after the character), so it really bothers me. 😅

[u/Extreme_Mall4756 → u/Iamabrawler]

What is the problem? I’m asking seriously; English isn’t my mother tongue—or my father tongue.

[u/CJCroen1393 → u/Extreme_Mall4756]

"Shacklebolt" has connotations of slavery.

[u/Bourgit → u/Go_Water_your_plants]

That's Key and Peele skit

[u/Perks92 → u/Go_Water_your_plants]

Or, now hear me out on this one… don’t do pointless race swaps at all?

[u/Go_Water_your_plants → u/Perks92]

Because it’s harmless and interesting

Characters always changes between adaptations, race is just one characteristic amongst many, it’s not special

[u/Substantial-Act-1629 → u/Go_Water_your_plants]

I can't wait!

[u/burnoutghost → u/Substantial-Act-1629]

This is such a dumb false equivalency I honestly think nobody can really think this shit withouth being either extremely dumb or extremely in bad faith

T’Challa’s ethnicity and origin are inextricably linked to the narrative and themes of Black Panther, Snape’s core identity has nothing to do with race

[u/Substantial-Act-1629 → u/burnoutghost]

Snape is a blood racist from an old rich aristocratic British family
He absolutely should be white

"Characters always changes between adaptations, race is just one characteristic amongst many, it’s not special"
Is a bad faith argument so I responded in kind

[u/burnoutghost → u/Substantial-Act-1629]

No he comes from a wizard aristocratic family, for which skin colour matters fuck all. He's racist against non wizards, not against black people, it's a children book how are you confused about this

It all revolves around magic and not magic people, not skin colour

[u/Substantial-Act-1629 → u/burnoutghost]

that's ok buddy keep missing the point intentionally

[u/burnoutghost → u/Substantial-Act-1629]

that's ok buddy i'm not surprised that a racist can't understand the plot points of a 30 years old children book even after it's been explained to you at nauseam

[u/freeMilliu_2K17 → u/burnoutghost]

What's hilarious is one What If Story recently seem to be a white passing half Wakandan dude getting the suit lmao

[u/YouJellyFish → u/Go_Water_your_plants]

"Look at that black man! He's just so interesting!"

Bruh stop caring about skin color. Just show the characters how they were in the book. Focusing on changing it just makes you a weirdo

[u/Mindless-Newt-9123 → u/Go_Water_your_plants]

They could have swapped literally ANY other faculty member and it would have worked without issue.

[u/AlaricTheBald → u/Go_Water_your_plants]

Would be pretty funny to raceswap Dumbledore, as Albus literally means White.

[u/Eden_ITA → u/Go_Water_your_plants]

On paper I like the idea, but in this way we lost a lot of the implications of Dumbledore's past as a ultra-conservative tied with the ""'Nazis""' (Grindelwald).

[u/HairiestHobo → u/Go_Water_your_plants]

Would Voldemort being terrified of a Black Dumbledore be too on the nose though?

[u/sQ5FWKjwbWd4QzSZduqy → u/HairiestHobo]

What nose?

[u/Go_Water_your_plants → u/HairiestHobo]

What about Harry Potter isn’t on the nose?

But for real I don’t think it would be, we don’t get the feeling Voldemort is irrationally afraid of dumbledore, dumbledore is like the most powerful wizard with authority and great connections who get shit done. But also dumbledore is a gray character who also did questionable things in the past and now, so it avoid the on the nose "evil one race vs angel other race ". Dumbledore is legitimately a morally complex character

(I’ve written his name too many fucking times )

[u/MagicSugarWater → u/Go_Water_your_plants]

Already done by Robot Chicken.

https://youtu.be/7jBo-ITubt4

[u/Professional_Drama24 → u/Go_Water_your_plants]

Dumbledore could absolutely be black or biracial. Hagrid too being half human half giant. It's crazy they didn't go with either of those two.

[u/burning_bagel → u/Go_Water_your_plants]

Could've been something like Pathfinder's Old Man Jatembe

[u/N0Karma → u/Go_Water_your_plants]

I'm not a super Harry Potter person (just saw the movies), but thinking about the cast, I'd would have gone with the Neville Longbottom chap. He's the real hero of the story. Always there at the right time, being quietly brave, dependable, and ultimately the most heroic in the end IMO.

Dumbledore as an African would have been really cool too and given another dynamic to the Voldemort fight for nazi-style purity.

edit: It occurs to me that the actor they chose may have been the only one willing to take the chance on the role. Having to deal with constantly being compared to Alan Rickman will be tough.

I hope he owns it and makes his own mark.

[u/100Zombiesinacoat → u/Go_Water_your_plants]

So this might be a strawman argument or something, but then they would be stealing ideas from Dimension 20's Fantasy High.

[u/Go_Water_your_plants → u/100Zombiesinacoat]

Ngl Arthur Aguefort did contribute to my vision

(But you could argue that they are all the same archetype anyway )

[u/Severe_Key298 → u/Go_Water_your_plants]

Or they could go even further and not make a transphobic show and just make a show based on Strength of Thousands instead

[u/icorrectpettydetails → u/Go_Water_your_plants]

Slight tangent but; There is one line in the final book that vaguely suggests Dumbledore's mother might have been Native American as well. Even if they were going directly from the books with no other changes they were under no obligation to make Dumbledore a white guy at all.

[u/warrioroftron → u/Go_Water_your_plants]

Imagine if he was Jamaican and uses a Bombaclat between each spells