r/PoursTea • u/Timbucktwo1230 đ« Mod âïž • 14d ago
FeministTeađ©đ»âđđ©đżââïžđ đ„Ÿ Agree Or Disagree?
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u/hyphenssuck 14d ago
Women in the US didn't universally have the right to vote until the passage of the Voting Rights Act in 1965. Although the 19th amendment granted women the right to vote, women of color still did not have equal voting rights.
It's crazy when you realize that it was only 60 years ago.
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u/Geschak 11d ago
Also women in the West weren't allowed to have their own bank account until a couple of decades ago. A lot of men have been radicalized to think women are oppressing men because of divorce and child support, when women are still treated like domestic slaves in many parts of the world.
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u/All_is_a_conspiracy 13d ago
And men have already pulled us back to near chattel position.
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u/SquidTheRidiculous 13d ago
Any time society allows us to be seen as full human beings, men start having temper tantrums that everything's too PC/SJW/woke and we gotta maintain the status quo for reasons.
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u/WhimsicalDaemon 14d ago
What's to disagree with? The statement is full of facts.
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u/Budget_Revolution639 14d ago
When youâre used to privilege, equality feels like oppression
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u/ACatWhoSparkled 14d ago
So many comments here are only focused on the right to vote. Western women were not allowed to have the same education as men until fairly recently as far as history goes. English law didnât even recognize a woman as a person for hundreds of years. Which effectively removed them from pursuing legal action unless it was through the church courts and even then it was limited. Women have absolutely been far more oppressed than men, it isnât even a question.
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u/Status-Visit-918 14d ago
In the 1970s we were finally federally allowed to have our own bank accounts without a man co-signing. And we still havenât ratified the ERA, which is all crazy to me
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u/Miserable_Pin2518 The Timeline Sucks 14d ago
Its worth mentioning that women could have bank accounts prior as in they were not banned or anything, it just wasnt illegal to discriminate against a woman on the basis of gender which allowed banks to deny women the right to accounts, and so they did.
Almost everyone. There was one bank in particular that always understood the value of women. It was citi bank. But dont go thinking "oh wow I didnt think of citi bank as the good guys" theyre not. They imposed absolute dogshit apr and fees for women knowing that women had nowhere else to go.
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u/Status-Visit-918 13d ago
Right, I was trying to just give the short version. It wasnât technically federally banned but states had the right to deny, and they exercised that right
I hate all banks. And this is stupid, which I realize, but constantly keeping a minimum balance is absurd, overdraft fees are crazy, idk if theyâre still doing that $7/day that youâre overdrafted bullshit but that is horrible too, and not releasing funds that are clearly there (rent, for example) until several days after itâs paid when every single dollar needs to be accounted for is almost cruel. I know Of course I can do the math, but itâs the visual thatâs just jarring when I check. I need that 2200 out, now. I need to physically see what Iâm working with and itâs my money - if I tell you to get rid of it now, do it.
That whole ass last part is probably irrational and dumb but I donât care. I want to stay pissed that non-interest bearing accounts can require a minimum amount. I just donât care to learn about it.
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u/arestheblue 14d ago
Why wasn't the ERA ratified? Who led the opposition against it?
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u/Status-Visit-918 14d ago
Itâs a long story, but itâs largely about Phyllis Schafly, crazy lunatic conservative threw a huge fit about women, like her, having literal rights, and now thereâs like 12 states I think that have never ratified it, and Google the list, itâs exactly the ones youâd think. Itâs been going on for so long.
I just always think about how even in 2026, we still donât have equal rights federally.
Itâs really a very interesting set of events, itâs got everything, from the 1920s when it was introduced, to all the incompetence and every year for like 50 years that it kept getting brought up again, until Phyllis started on her bullshit in the 70s, the 80s were crazy with it all, up until this day. Itâs so crazy. I only learned this like 5 years ago and I GASPED đđ
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u/greymisperception 14d ago
âDidnât recognize them as a citizenâ is probably more accurate, these laws didnât even include all men as full status at those times either, Iâm happy modern societies have advanced away from that though
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u/Chaddoh 12d ago
Why weren't these men included? Race. You can probably guess that the women of the same race are faced with even less rights than their male counterparts.
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u/BingoBangBongos 13d ago
College enrollment and graduation rates have reversed since the 1970's when Title IX was introduced.
Should men get Title X now since they're unequally lagging behind in higher education?
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u/Calvinjamesscott 13d ago
The entire argument is about things that happened before we were born. The stats don't really play out to much of an imbalance now or even in the last 20 years. Of course it isn't perfect, but let's not pretend things haven't changed massively since women weren't allowed to vote
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u/welpWW3isgonnasuck 14d ago
There's a massive uptick of far right women hating propaganda. They realized that blaming racial and sexual minorities wasnt enough anymore so now MAGA and the far right are blaming women's suffrage for all of the problems created by predominantly old white men.Â
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u/thricedice88 14d ago
The irony is that the systems built by men are also the reason that many things are bad for the common man today (mental health support, domestic abuse support, homeless services) and then there are the people who lump all men into the same category as the unrelated men who created those systems, thus victimising and discriminating against an entire generation of men. Turns out that the powerful men of times gone by actually fucked over both genders and made sure that we'd fight amongst ourselves about it, like mindless, soulless insects.
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u/Nashley7 14d ago
There 100% is a gender and its pushed by social media algorithms. Algorithms track how long a user pauses over a post. If a man or woman stops to read a highly offensive, sexist, or discriminatory post out of shock or anger, the algorithm registers that extended view time as "high interest".
It will then actively push similar content or hostile "rage-bait" into their feed to keep them hooked. If they reply to defend themselves, reports the post, or shares it to express disgust, the algorithm treats those actions as maximum engagement, prompting it to serve them even more toxic content.
So women are pushed misogynistic content and men are pushed misandry. The only people that benefit are the creators of the content and those pushing it on you. Because those people get paid based on how much engagement their content creates. Positive or negative engagement is rewarded the same.
Instead of addressing genuine, gender-specific issues, such as men's mental health crises or women's safety and economic equity a toxic cultural divide pits these struggles against each other as competing losses rather than shared human concerns. If it becomes a zero sum game someone has to lose. That is literally the definition of a zero sum game.
Here is the problem. When young men in their formative years hear generalized statements like "men are trash," they often experience it as a personal attack rather than a critique of systemic patriarchy or toxic behavior. Young minds just cant process that they are being called trash as a response to the historic patriarchy.
When progressive spaces use this rhetoric, it alienates these men, making them reject the broader, helpful messages of gender equality altogether. But even worse it makes them reject the progressive idealogy in its entirety. When individuals feel attacked, they naturally seek out spaces that offer validation, defense, and community.
The manosphere which includes subcultures like Incels, MGTOW, and Alpha Male self-help gurus capitalizes directly on this alienation. They replace feelings of shame or inadequacy with a framework of control, self-improvement, or counter-aggression. These spaces offer a distorted but powerful alternative narrative, You aren't the problem, society/modern feminism is. But then they do something more sinister beneath the surface.
The algorithms quickly route a young man looking at basic self-improvement, fitness, or dating advice into content that frames conservative politics as the solution to his issues. In the 2024 Presidential Election, Donald Trump saw a historic 15 point swing among young men under 30 compared to 2020. This handed him the election, which results in him nominating tenured judges, who will preside over the courts for the next 2 decades. And this wasn't an isolated trend, data and academic research across global democracies confirm that the political gender divide among young people, specifically young men leaning toward conservative and right-wing populist parties, is persisting as a defining feature of modern elections. Whatever your opinions, we really dont want this continuing. Im not saying i have the answers. Im just pointing out a troubling direction of travel.
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u/Timely-Youth-9074 14d ago
The difference is these right wing men want to take away womenâs rights while left wing women want to keep their rights!
Itâs not the same thing.
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u/lolgamatatsu 14d ago
As a man, my observation is that unfortunately a lot young guys have a physical environment beyond social media that reinforces hate and misogyny heavily. So many young boys grow up with male role models around them that are every bit of the problem and naturally they'll want to imitate it. Or growing up with mothers like mine who just kind of silently put up with it and aren't really vocal about feminism at all. In an environment like that it's really really easy to be a misogynist, and it takes a lot of mental work to break out of a cycle like that, which often time those skills are not curated by those environments either.
As fathers, and men I believe we have a duty to try and help educate younger men, that unfortunately many of us fall very far short of.
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u/Dudewhocares3 14d ago
One of my uncles told me âtheyâre all whores except your motherâ
In regard to women.
He has a wife, and now he has daughters (he has sons when he said this to me when I was 10)
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u/Nashley7 14d ago
The problem is that when women experience vile hateful misogyny as they obviously often do we have a lot of built out progressive spaces that offer support and sanctuary. When young men experience despair because of economic insecurity, severe social isolation and then being called trash the only spaces that offer support and sanctuary are on the right. We made a huge mistake when we let this happen.
Even for me as a man in my early 30's if i look online for advice about relationships, financial advice, or even just home/car repair the algorithm tries to funnel me into male grievance based ideology. Its so frustrating. But i have the foundation to reject all of that.
But i can very clearly see if you are a teenage boy and you google "how to get better with girls" how you can very easliy get funneled into the manosphere. You will get a clip telling you about hygiene, confidence etc. Then the very next clip you will get recommended will be something along the lines of "why you are not trash" and then down the pipeline to some Andrew Tate clip telling you why you are "superior".
We must find a way to build out spaces where young men can be made to feel important, valued and respected from the left. And we definitely need more left leaning men offering advice on finances, relationships, cars, welding, wood working etc. We should not let all the interests young men traditionally have all belong to the right. And we most definitely should not let the only clips they see from women be them being called trash.
I know screaming into the void about empathy is pointless. But at least do it for your own self interset. Them voting for Trump led to the supreme court being 6-3 majority conservative.
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u/Leading_Line2741 14d ago
While I agree with this, no amount of consoling, progressive outlets for women are going to get us control of our bodies and the right to choose back, for example. We have to vent and then go back out into a world that increasingly wants to remove our freedoms. I agree that men need spaces like this, but they also need a reality check. When you've held a privilege for so long any attempt at equalizing things feels like oppression. Doesn't mean it is, though.
I see men like you that seem enlightened to this fact. Why are some of you not creating these spaces to counter the manosphere? As a woman, I hear so many decent men talk about how they're not like the incels. I wish they would create the spaces you're speaking of. Women are tired; we aren't going to do it for them.
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u/jetloflin 14d ago
The spaces that support women exist because women created them. So I agree that âwe must find a way to build out spaces (for young men)â, but only if âweâ means men. Women can help, of course, but I canât agree with the idea thatâs itâs everyoneâs job equally. Women didnât wait for men to start caring and change their behavior, they just started working to make society better. Men shouldnât wait until no women say âI hate menâ before they work to improve society too.
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u/Chemical-Ad-7575 14d ago
"We must find a way to build out spaces where young men can be made to feel important, valued and respected from the left."
It's this, but that's going to require a complete rebuild or new approach to the politcal theories underlying the left with respect to gender. "Patriarchy" is great as a theory for explaining the past and the traditions/norms/mores of the present, but almost by definition it cannot lead anywhere.
It's like saying "smash the black death", but instead of studying how to kill it with antibiotoics or vaccine, you instead focus on how it kills the host.
It's not a path forwards and it's a strategic failure to focus on the depths of the problem instead of replacements and /or fixing it.
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u/dragalcat 14d ago
I think this absolutely does effect women too. This is how we get trans-hating radfems or misandrist groups online. Iâve had to pull one of my feminist friends aside to talk before because I noticed her algorithms pulling her further off actual feminism into misandrist talking points⊠fortunately, she thought about what Iâd pointed out, self-reflected, and changed course.
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u/jetloflin 14d ago
Thatâs not the part I was saying doesnât apply to women. It was the excusing of radicalization by saying âwell so and so was mean to them so of course they became horrible.â Women arenât afforded that grace near as often as men are. (And the left isnât afforded that grace near as often as the right either. Itâs odd.)
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u/_HighJack_ 13d ago
Thank you for doing that!! As someone whoâs been a feminist basically my entire life, whatâs happening with it rn is scary. It feels like a lot of online feminism has been corrupted by some kind of psyop
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u/Dresdendies 13d ago
1) There are young men who also see hateful shit directed at them, yet still end up fighting for equality and progressive causes... Which I feel like I have to state because some comments on here seem to think that feminist and progressive movements were built solely by women.
2).... The point of the op's post is that the net that's there to capture the disaffected youth is conservative and misandric spaces. "Hey, how come the ball that fell into the tub of blue dye became blue, and the one that fell into the red one turned red?"..... Yeah, I wonder why.
3) Regarding the joke about fascism. Are we talking about young men? Or are we talking about adult men who feel pushed out of leftist spaces? Because the former are emotional and don't have life experiences. And most likely lack offline friends. Why do you think hate movements target recruiting disaffected youths? As for the latter, I can't say I've come across many 40+ year olds who are leaving the left because of feminism.
4) While you might think young women are all sunshine and roses... as someone who gets served odious feminists on occasion by my algorithm, I can assure you they aren't. Had a recent video in my feed of a woman saying she is taking revenge on men who displease her by doing stunts like spitting on their drinks and making them drink it. And the comments weren't disagreeing with her actions.
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u/FrelonDafidou 14d ago
The hateful comments women hear comes mostly from the right so it push them left, while the hateful comments man hear mostly comes from the left or at least people who present themselves as leftist so it push them right. Both man and woman are being alienated by these comments but they aren't being alienated from the same place.
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u/DistractionCitron 14d ago
Even without the left and right of the political spectrum, women are not raping and killing men en masse because of misogynistic statements so, that cannot be used as an excuse for men terrorizing women.
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u/Realistic-Truck54 13d ago
Nothing can be used as an excuse for horrible acts. What the guy you replied to did was explain, not excuse.
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u/Seienchin88 14d ago
Thank you so much!
With the Cornell 7 I really felt with the many women supporting the victim and giving their own perspectives but I also saw two things happening -
An immediate push to get "all menâ trending that luckily failed but was certain to incite another gender warâŠ
A back and forth reaction between conservative social media influencers and some more left wing / liberal media influencers both jumping on
every little bit of new information, lacking this with inflammatory rhetoric and trying to paint everyone on the other side as a monster.And seriously - someone dared to say "due process is necessary, doxing the alleged perpetrators is not rightâ on a feminist sub here on Reddit and got torn to shreds with people saying rapists down deserve that and implying the person writing that comment was one m⊠I mean, I also think the current facts strongly suggest at least some of the 7 were rapists but I donât believe someone arguing for the rule of law should be downvoted to oblivion and be personally attacked but emotions are running high due to the social media messaging here.
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u/Gibberish45 14d ago
This is Reddit, Iâm not sure all that nuance and reason is acceptable here. Here we gobble up culture war slop lol
Seriously though you nailed it and I like to think many others are waking up to this reality too. One thing to consider also is the vast number of malicious actors posing as genuine people that call Reddit home. Just like twitter, itâs the perfect place to pose as someone youâre not just to stir the pot
I donât believe anything from almost every form of media these days, least of all official channels
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u/Nashley7 14d ago
I know im screaming about empathy on Reddit but Gen-Z men went 67% for Trump. How can we let this continue.
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u/Gibberish45 14d ago
Well I donât think itâs possible to stop it. The only person we have control over is ourself. Best anyone can do is be the change you want to see and treat others with respect. Ghandi and MLK made such lasting impacts through peace. Today it seems like everyone is out for blood and it saddens me
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u/Timely-Youth-9074 14d ago
The difference is these right wing men want to take away womenâs rights while left wing women want to keep their rights!
Itâs not the same thing.
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u/Nashley7 14d ago
You are right. But you are missing the point. The only safe spaces young men have, should not only be on the right. Because then they will become right wingers. Make some safe spaces on the left for things young men are traditional interested in. The only clips that say nice things about men should not only be made by right wingers. Because contrary to popular belief, we also like hearing nice things about ourselves. But currently if you a feeling vain and crave some validation you are only going to find clips from the right. And we all know what the algorithm is going to recommend us next. So young men who are impressionable can very easily fall down the pipeline and come out the other side full blown women hating right wingers.
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u/Timely-Youth-9074 14d ago
Except whoever is targeting young men on the right understands their weaknesses.
Progressiveness is not about sucking up and then finding a common enemy to rage on like rw politics is.
Itâs about education, equality and respect. Young men especially need to be nurtured in these values to understand the value of them.
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u/Beerzerker420 14d ago
Go post this to the evilwomeninc subreddit and tell me how long you last before getting verbally abused and banned
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u/Marshall006__ 14d ago
It's crazy that the only real thought out take in this comment section is buried under 8 comments of "bUt MeN aRe EvIl"
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u/Numerous-Beautiful46 14d ago
yeah I'm 100% on the social media angle. Too many men and women pushing their own views not realising the harm it's causing young boys and girls.
Instagram lately has shown me nothing but misandry of women telling me that I'm evil because man. I think the biggest issue here is no one wants to start being a better person. If more men started being civil and nice to women and more women started being civil and nice to men maybe we'd have a nicer world but no one wants to because everyone's caught up in a giant scuffle of ridiculous proportions.
And the best example of this is subreddits like evilwomeninc and itsthatbad People get so caught up in their hate they don't realise they're not harming hateful people but just normal people and often times due to how social media works, this ends up being the younger boy or girl. Which only really aggravates the issue and then it's "just dark humour dude....."
In other words, people are stupid and too short sighted to realise the damage we've all done is probably irreparable without fixing the way social media works and that is not going to happen because humanity is too obsessed with being hateful and vindictive when they're hurt.
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u/Nashley7 14d ago
I wish we could just choose empathy. Try to understand what the other person is feeling first then react from that lense. Women's rights are under attack by Christian conservatives so they are angry. Young men's education and early career prospects are depressingly low compared to young women. And then add in the loniless epidemic you have ripe conditions for a gender war to spiral out of control. Young women are trending far left rapidly while young men are trending far right rapidly. People find the gender war a fun way to vent their frustrations. But the end state is a complete disaster. The thing people dont understand about zero sum games is that both sides can lose. When someone is on the verge of a crushing defeat they can scorch the earth so that even the winner still loses. Thats kind of what i see when young men keep voting for conservatives, who consistently destroy the economy.
We should have empathy regardless but lets say you have none, its in your best interest to not be in a gender war. And lets say as a young woman you dont feel any empathy for young men, fine but the supreme court has a 6â3 conservative majority. You really dont want any more young men choosing to be conservative in their formative years. Opinions you form in those years leave an indelible imprint that go with you for the rest of your lives.
And if you are a young man and lets say you have no empathy for women getting their rights restricted. Just remember women vote at much higher rates than men do. You dont want them voting against your interest to punish you. Just have empathy because you are a fucking human being for crying out loud.
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u/akade19961 14d ago
I loved this comment. And thatâs coming from a man.
People have to realize that blaming the other gender for their problems is pathetic and mostly inaccurate, whether that other gender is men or women, rather than hide behind self serving labels and ideologies. Unfortunately we are going the opposite direction, and it is becoming more and more common for men to blame all their problems on women while becoming zero percent less common for women to blame all their problems on men (and women had a head start in that regard).
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u/Dudewhocares3 14d ago
How does the man vs bear hypothetical fit into this?
I see you gave the perspective for the men,
What about the women? Like it or not, them saying men as a generalization isnât exactly unearned. Thereâs a lot of bad men, and a lot of them get away with it because society has normalized that behavior
Hereâs an article that shows it https://jamesfell.com/she-doesnt-owe-you-shit/
So many different women who get verbally explosive and physically violent reactions for saying no, wives raped because their husband decided he had more right to her body then she did.
I understand where youâre coming from, but where women coming from arenât wrong and I donât think softening the message is gonna help.
This is a group of people that have been getting shit globally for god knows how long, but because they are really blunt with their messaging itâs their fault these young men go to people like Andrew Tate who brags about raping his girlfriend? Or Matt Walsh who wants to lower the age of consent?
Iâm really trying not to be hostile here, I do want an answer but itâs really frustrating that people pointing out a valid issue can turn people into that issue
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u/Chemical-Ad-7575 14d ago
"I do want an answer but itâs really frustrating that people pointing out a valid issue can turn people into that issue"
The problem is that that those models doesn't allow for an approach where men (as a group) can "win". It fundamentally dehumanizes them so they're either they're repugnant monsters worse than a bear or potential monsters that may reveal themselves at anytime. It goes from social commentary to a trap. And while a lot of guys might not have the words at that exact moment to explain that, it does explain why they would disengage and devalue the words of people saying it.
You can do the same thing to women easily enough with a question like "Would you rather run into a bear in the woods or be a male teacher forced to have a closed door one on one meeting with a female student who's unhappy with her marks." There's no way for women to win that one either.
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u/forfeitgame 14d ago
I don't think we should worry about "winning" when it comes to women asking not to be raped.
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u/Nashley7 14d ago
So im not saying its women's fault that young men are voting conservative. Im saying this is not a good outcome. So im trying to diagnose the problem. If young women were trending right i would be doing the same thing. I would be on a predominantly male sub saying hey guys wtf are we doing wrong. We should not be giving up young women to the far right. What is the root cause and how can we make sure to stop it from continuing.
When it comes to young men what i can see, and i might be wrong here is that young men specifically dont feel seen or valued by the left. The only places young men can feel seen and valued belong to the right. Because obviously because of how womens rights are being stripped and general misogyny left spaces are very hostile to men in general. We need spaces on the left that make young men feel seen and valued. In those spaces you can imprint the right ideals of being a good partner, a good ally, and fighting for whats right.
But you should not just hand over young men to the right without a fight. Once they become right wingers they will vote against womens rights for the rest of their lives because that's what the right does. And more people like Trump will win. And we dont want that happening, because that is a very bleak future.
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u/ColdHardPocketChange 14d ago
Using .01% of the population that comes from the small subset of the rich and powerful to extrapolate across an entire country does seem a poor argument designed to fan the flames of a gender war.
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u/bagofstuff12 14d ago
Men didnât take away womenâs right to vote, it wasnt given in the first place. The men that could vote at that time and made the rules were wealthy land owners.
Interestingly this post is correct, there is no gender war. It is and always has been a class war, just one side is better at distracting the other from it.
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u/Casses 13d ago
From a certain point of view something is being taken away from men: Control.
If women can't vote, politics is controlled by men and the only influence women have is what men allow them.
If women can't own property, then women can't even rely on a place to live except for through the largesse of men.
If women can't get a proper education, their knowledge of the world around them is limited by what men allow them to know.
If women can't even control their own bodies, then they are slaves to the men in their lives.
That control should never have been in the hands of men to begin with, but it was and because of that some men will think it should always remain in their hands and any attempt to correct the imbalance is inherently hostile to men.
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u/sarges_12gauge 13d ago
I mean, more women than men have voted in every US election since the 1950s. They are the largest demographic with the most voting power (and theyâve exercised it by outvoting men!) if you want to slice it up that way
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u/Immediate-Payment846 13d ago
Dont act dumb. There was a time were women werent allowed to vote because they are women, and there are usually more women then men in a country.
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u/Happy-Hyena 11d ago
There was a time when doctors performed malpractice intentionally. Am I okay to be guilt free hateful now based on what was 100 years ago? Am I supposed to ride that wave for the rest of time to spread as much hate as I can just because my ancestors were wronged, In whatever field?
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u/InLawLawLandStill 10d ago
Being oppressed in a very specific way that is NOT based on a protected class (malpractice against a set of a doctor's patients, but nonetheless all his patients without discrimination) â being oppressed in a myriad of ways BASED on a protected class (unable to vote, own property, sue, accumulate wealth, etc. all because you're a woman and thus discriminated against).
That was an extremely shitty analogy and thought experiment on your end.
But running with it anyways -- yes, yes you would be right to be WARY, SUSPICIOUS, SKEPTICAL, and MISTRUSTING -- especially when there's tons of podcasts still being released by doctors trying to justify poor treatments of patients. Or doctors still harming certain patients based on hateful beliefs. Or doctors joining the board of directors at a hospital and holding positions of power.
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u/Neither_Passion_6226 13d ago
Most men werenât allowed to vote either
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u/Immediate-Payment846 13d ago
But not because they were MEN, do you not understand the difference? first it was based on class which meant most men also couldnt vote, but women could never vote until it was decided they could, dont be stupid. Women only got the right to vote way later, this argument is so stupid of yours.
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u/HardikRamdin 12d ago
 But not because they were MEN
Poor men whose job was to slave away for the landlord or die for the king.
Men were not living in luxury. The reason women were afforded the right to vote is because of advances in technology that allowed safer spaces across society.
Men voted first because they were the ones dying on the front lines, digging ditches, building infrastructure and the society you enjoy today. Men were also responsible for property they owned and got the vote considering what they had invested in the country. In the US, they were the ones that fought for freedom against the British.
And this is only in certain contexts. The rest of the world is not as fortunate as privileged Americans. There are many countries where voting isn't even a thing. Americans also have this weird view that only their country matters when queens and empresses ran civilizations long before the US was even a thing. The average citizen didn't get to vote at all.
You go on about the right to vote when women don't even get guaranteed maternity leave. You blame the average Joe next to you when you have more in common with him than the elites who are taking your rights away. Your labour laws in the US don't matter and you compete with each other for scraps.
If you bothered to unite for once across gender and racial lines, you could change things, but you have a hard on for punishing the people today for the sins of people 200 years ago.
I mean, Sojourner Truth had to raise her voice as a woman because the Women's Suffragate movement didn't want to confuse their issues with those of black people. Do we assume feminists today are racist because of the sins of their grandmothers and great grandmothers?Â
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u/13_WASHERE 14d ago edited 14d ago
The only time I'll call it a gender war is to critize men online attacking women cause some of them really do believe they're being persecuted and need to fight back; and calling it a gender war just calls out how fucking crazy they're being
But I think eventually the "gender war" language just got co-op by men to be used against women for wanting better
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u/Tezz321 14d ago
Where do Black Men figure into this?...We only got provisional recognition as citizens 60 years ago
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u/SmallTimeCook 14d ago
Intersectionality can be a tangled ball of strings, so Iâd advise you to not try and get someone from Reddit to untangle it for you. There is certainly nobody here remotely versed enough to give you an answer that is both easy to understand and brushing shoulders with truth.
Vaguely put, black men are also subject to awful games of life. It was never one or the other. Black men can also exhibit patriarchal tendencies or homophobic tendencies. That they are not the top rung does not disqualify them from bigotry. Hispanics certainly arenât the top rung in the states, and a whole lot of them are certainly racist against black people. Some early white feminists were motivated by black men being able to vote because they thought it was unfair that the âinferior raceâ could vote and they couldnât.
It can devolve into a rat race, or we could be a much more effective front united by expanding our individual desire for fair treatment towards a collective desire for the common good. Unity is a boon for all of us , otherwise there wouldnât be so much money in pitting the subjugated against one another instead.
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u/Mintyytea 14d ago
Treatment of black people and women has both been horrible. In just my opinion, black people had it worse with slavery and outright hatred and lynching. But with oppression olympics, we know itâs not about that in the end, they are both issues that today end peopleâs lives unfairly, unfairly affect employment and livelihood, unfairly affect our healthcare. Womenâs issues also go back longer than oppression of African Americans because itâs from in Europe too where America comes from, it goes back centuries, maybe at least a thousand years, affects every country today. And somehow makes women, about half the population, a minority group.
As for what about black men charged with a crime against a woman, just like anyone else, people must be held accountable for their actions. Think about the intersectionality of being a black woman if me saying black men could be charged with sexist crime sounds offensive to you. Itâs not an attack on your group, think about black women and shouldnât they get justice too? Black women as a group have it worse than women and black men. I say that in case it helps you to have empathy for another group.
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u/Capable_Anything_726 14d ago
Technically, black men got the right to vote way before women. In practice, another story.
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u/Special-Election3224 14d ago
They love to lump black men into everything without looking at history. Black men fought side by side with white men in World War 2 (a war that was over some European BS, to be frank). After the war, white soldiers received a hero's welcome, the GI Bill, housing in nice neighborhoods, and other benefits from the government. Black soldiers, on the other hand, received none of those thing
American white women who didn't fight in the war but still managed to live in the nice neighborhoods, economic benefits, and overall lived a better life than the black soldiers who fought in the war.
Fast forward to today, white women outnumber black men in academia, corporate leadership, and hold more government offices.
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u/AnkylosaurusWrecks 14d ago
Oh no you don't! First of all, women did not set up the government. Women were not allowed to fight combat. But many women, of all colors, contributed to effort however they could. Frederick Douglas supported women's suffrage. We used to be allies. Until you saw a chance to take the vote for yourself.
Also black women outnumber black men in academia. It continues to be the men who are their own problem.
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u/Metalingus5150 14d ago
Agree, also, men are the most coddled demographic on the planet lol
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u/Frylock_dontDM 14d ago
Im a black man in america, how the fuck am I coddled?
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u/IZanderI 13d ago
They wonât respond to you, they are too busy being an upset white person.
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u/EloquentTroglodyte 13d ago
The trait of being a man generally has its privileges, and the trait of being black gets you racism and oppression. You have both, thats called intersectionality. Thats why in the USA, in terms of privilege, it usually goes: White passing man, white passing woman, a black man, and then a black woman.
Some things have a little overlap, the black woman will experience the hardship of sexism, and racism, while the black man just receives racism, and can receive respect easier because heâs a man. All of this is grossly oversimplified and changes drastically depending on the setting and the area. But yeah, in terms of JUST sex and not incorporating other factors, men are coddled the most.
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u/Frylock_dontDM 13d ago
Intersectionality is understanding that being a man has negatives and being a black man has negatives for both.
Black men are not respected, black men are not given the benefit of doubt, black men are punished explicitly for being male in a variety of situations and therefore more dangerous, unpredictable, black men are not thought of as intrinsically smart/capable etc. Etc.
Yes there is sexism against men, and black men feel the brunt of it without the privileges that white men haven't offset those negatives.
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u/blu453 13d ago
There is not sexism against men, sexism is systemically only against women. You were not held back because of your gender but because of your color.
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u/retep-noskcire 12d ago
This just feels antithetical to the truth. Any man who has been in a relationship with a woman would question your statement.
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u/zombiepire 12d ago
A woman murdered her kids and other women felt sorry for her. Nobody are more coddled than women
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u/Italian_Stallion4 11d ago
I would hate having your world view. It sounds miserable and bitter. Good luck in life
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u/TangledThorns 14d ago
Reddit: There is no gender war.
Also, Reddit: MEN ARE SO TOXIC!! WE HATES THE MEN!!
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u/bringbackmegaman 14d ago
Don't buy into gender wars slop.Â
The op is not saying anything like what you said.
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u/Veshaad Timendi Causa Est Nescire 14d ago
We need more people like Olga of Kiev (aka Helga). Her revenge was legendary,
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u/Late-Assignment8482 14d ago
Ukrainians have been dominant in drone warfare for a while. First use of guided incendiary drones: 9th Century. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olga_of_Kiev#Drevlian_Uprising
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u/Belter-frog 14d ago
Yeah but one time on the internet a woman said she only likes tall guys and that's worse.
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u/Cometguy7 13d ago
I agree with everything except the idea that the imbalance has to go both ways for something to be a war. That's the type of thing that creates a revolutionary war.
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u/celino1997 10d ago
Disagree! Because most man alive today didnt do any off that. Yet u feel like the statement Men do something is correct. No, our grandpa's did something and nobody likes it đ€Ł
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u/normandukerollo 14d ago
Men and women are partners and should work together to better their communities.
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u/BattleHot2240 14d ago
Unfortunately we can't rely on men to help us, aside from a few good ones. The opressor never voluntarily gives up power, it has to be taken from them.
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u/3ArmsNoSouls 14d ago
I too remember when all those congresswomen voted for the 19th amendment oh wait
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u/El0vution 14d ago
What kind of oppressor implements âwomen and childrenâ first in dangerous situations?
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u/Timbucktwo1230 đ« Mod âïž 14d ago
Thatâs the ideal and many do achieve thatâŠ
âŠbut worldwide itâs probably a drop in the ocean of misogyny, oppression, state sanctioned violence and criminalisation of aspects of womanhood as well as a âgamed boardâ that exists in far too many nations.
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u/TurtleHurtleSquirtle 14d ago
Some of these comments are just this guy. Dudes need to grow up, go outside, or both, if this post makes you mad.
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u/PraireGentleman 14d ago
- Women maintain one-sided post conception reproductive autonomy. In simpler terms, she can have an abortion to reject parenthood after conception, a man can not have anything to reject parenthood after conception. And since conception cannot be 100% prevented, even with vasectomies, that quite literally prevents men from choosing parenthood without complete abstinence, which is what anti-choicers support
- Women on college campuses have campaigned against various menâs health events such as the University of Toronto hosting a menâs suicide awareness event and another university (I want to say Chicago) had women protesting over a flyer about menâs mental health month. Women also receive exclusive financial support through gender discriminatory bursaries and grants in post-secondary and higher degrees of grade inflation, making them push men out of the non-discriminatory financial supports as well
- Womenâs groups defended male-only conscription in the US during the late 20th century at the height of anti-war sentiments. This event also created the MRAs, who were male feminists that were pushed out of the movement for criticizing the clear support for gender inequality.
- When menâs shelters were being created in the early 2000s, women attacked and harassed the creator, who eventually committed suicide.
Women didnât build insane asylums to toss men into when they did something they didnât like, but they certainly create and uphold discriminatory systems that benefit them. Itâs why they focused more on a rich celebrity being called unattractive for being fat than on a legal system that provides women more legal agency in parenthood than men
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u/Elveanim 14d ago
A conflict where one faction fights to keep the other faction down can still be a war.
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u/Fast_Adhesiveness528 14d ago
Wars can be one sided. The Anglo-Zanzibar War lasted 38-45 minutes due to the imbalance of power.
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u/jimbrag1 14d ago
So your view is that there is zero difference in rights between states? Its like your people don't even want to be correct about anything
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u/Abject-Ticket-6260 14d ago
Yeah, the picture is right. Men have zero bodily autonomy rights no matter the state lmao.
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u/Abestar909 14d ago
Cept men's rights do vary by state. Lesser criminal sentencing for women, preferential treatment in divorce and parental custody courts, not to mention sex based hiring, greater resources for women in all walks of life from mental health to scholarships. All of these vary by state.
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u/Rough-Board1218 14d ago
Dumb. Everyone's rights vary state to state. You have the right to smoke marijuana in Colorado but not Texas, for exmample
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u/Zv_- 14d ago
Youâre opinion doesnât matter because you made a minor spelling mistake
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u/Rough-Board1218 14d ago
đ It's "Your opinion", not "You're opinion" Unless you meant to say "You are opinion"
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u/Zv_- 14d ago
Itâs yoâure
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u/PraireGentleman 14d ago
This would be a great example if you ignore that the US has male-only conscription that womenâs groups defend during the anti-war sentiments in the late 20th century.
You not knowing how women and feminism maintains oppression against men doesnât make it not true.
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u/TheMuffler42069 14d ago
Donât you also believe that black men also donât have the same rights ? So donât you acknowledge that some men donât have equal rights ? If you disagree youâre racist
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u/Kraegorz 14d ago
You are right. There are about 50 countries in the world that are doing this right now. Under one religion, one law. I would say guess which religion, but no on on Reddit will say it I am sure.
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u/jancl0 14d ago
"there is no gender war"
Immediately starts calling out one side of the gender war. My brother in Christ you are the gender war
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u/catinformant 14d ago
So tired of every time a woman says something they don't like they cry gender war. No dude thats just your own knee jerk reaction to women and your own need to pathologize the existence of an opinion that threatens your own worldview....and you should probably address and work on that.
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u/Own-Raisin5849 14d ago
That's because the basic framework of civilization was might makes right, of course Men would naturally be the predominant group. Common fking sense, doesn't make it right, it makes it what is, and we have made huge steps to rectify that.
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u/throwaway587241 14d ago
I've seen plenty of comments in the context of the Cornell 7 case arguing that men accused of rape should be presumed guilty until proven innocent, and that standards of evidence should be lowered in order to get more rape convictions. Which sounds like (some) women trying to deny a man's right to a fair trial.
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u/Routine-Buddy5069 14d ago
I would agree that women did not take away rights of cishet men. They have taken away rights from gay men. For example, Sandra Day O'Connor voted to keep the criminalization of gay men. Amy Coney Barrett said that LGBTQ people don't have the right to public accommodation, etc.
And every woman who voted for the GOP from Reagan on.
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u/almostthemainman 14d ago
Iâm so confused. Are we mad at men? Are we mad at rich people? Are we mad at Republicans? Are we mad at all of them? Can we please get some direction before midterms
Whatâs that?
Oh all of this kind of stuff is just designed to further divide everyone? Ok
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u/NoSleepTilBrklynn 14d ago
Iâd like western society to burn to the ground. Gender war away. Race war away.
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u/Critical_Bee_4302 14d ago
It was men who took it from them and it was men who gave it to them. Women can blame men for all of their problems all they want, but they have to give men their full lot. Why focus only on the atrocities. There was a time when only men could vote and a day came where men voted for women.
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u/Efrath 14d ago
Men had to go to war and die and women didn't, which was also why they could vote and why you had plenty of women *not* wanting the right to vote due to this implication. Men had to do the more dangerous and heavier work. Women were considered more valuable and men disposable.
Men and women have had their share of shitty things, and it doesn't help that this post is trying to pretend like there isn't different dynamics and problems today. The part about "Property" is especially ironic, given the way divorce have generally been for the past few decades.
The simple, pure truth is that women had their injustices stem from being protected and kept safe, leading to less choice, and men their injustices from being disposable and expected to provide and protect.
And this still rings true today, it's why stories about women just on average garners more reaction and at times even treat women more often as if they have no agency or are incapable of making their own decisions.
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u/EclipsePresence 14d ago
Itâs a "gender war" insofar as itâs a subsection of culture war; that is to say, it exists and is manufactured by the corporate elite in an ongoing attempt to ensure that people that have it bad busy themselves ensuring someone else has it worse. Super wealthy women arenât ever going to be subjected to the same scrutiny and systemic cruelty that the average woman is, nor do they concern themselves with broad "womenâs rights".
Thereâs no real war but class war, and if youâre reading this, regardless of race, gender, or creed, youâre losing it.
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u/Technical_Bed6770 14d ago
Almost like in certain cultures there is a book that tells men they should take all that away from women đ§
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u/Erin_Derrick_Art 14d ago
There's no need to agree or disagree. There is data to back this up. The book Invisible Women gets into the less obvious talking points relating to this as well. Male is the default for almost everything and it hurts everyone.
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u/Terrin369 14d ago
War doesnât require both sides to be equal. Most wars have been fought because one side was being treated poorly by the other and decided to rise up. Thatâs what revolutionary wars are.
And just like a normal war, you have individuals from each side fighting for the opposite. Either because they believe that side is in the right or because they believe it will get them some benefit to fight for that side if it wins.
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u/mastercat202 14d ago
I dont think im taking women's right to vote. Sorry women, my bad. I shouldn't have done that. I'll give it back right now...
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u/deepfuckingbagholder 14d ago
We should stop living in the past. What are the problems today? Letâs focus on those.
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u/BananasPineapple05 14d ago
I think it's telling that anyone thinks of it as a war.
Because no one's asking to take anything away from men. If anything, feminism is about recognizing that men also get shafted by the patriarchy.
People who call it a war are just applying reductive thinking to what is essentially a call to recognise that all humans have equal worth from the start, whether they are men or women. (Not saying their actions don't impact whether they remain equally worthy. Just that we all start out equal, in principle.)