Corrupted orcs, corrupted elves, corrupted humans, corrupted ancients, corrupted gods, corrupted corrupting corruption. It just goes on and on and on and on until basically every bad thing that happened was a manipulative outside force so Bad Guys can be instantly redeemed and nobody has to face any consequence since they no control!! from the evil corrupting corruption!! It leaves no room to explore genuinely error of judgement and the guilt that comes with it

I love the franchise to death but this trope is so boringly overdone

Ever since the Blood Elves joined the Horde, a bunch of players have been complaining that they shouldn't be members of the Horde, commenting on how the High Elves were members of the Alliance, how they don't fit in aesthetically, and how it was only so the Horde could have a pretty race. Well, more than 15 years have passed and people are still complaining, which, in my opinion, makes no sense. Looking at WoW's history, I think the Blood Elves being part of the Horde is one of the best themes this game has ever created.

First, let's get straight to the technical side. There's always the thing that the Blood Elves were included in the Horde because Chinese players wanted a pretty race for the Horde, and... what's the problem? The Blood Elves were NEVER intended to be members of the Alliance in WoW in the first place. The developers decided to take an available race while giving the Alliance a completely new race: the Draenei. One of the best races in the franchise might never have existed in the same way if the Belfs had joined the Alliance, and this decision, based on player desire, was one of the best in the franchise's history.

A brief review of them.

They were descendants of the Highborne, former members of the Night Elves, who created a magic-based society and created the Sunwell as their main source of power. For centuries, they were allies of the humans through Dalaran and the Lordaeron Alliance. After they were massacred by Arthas, lost the Sunwell, and developed an addiction to magic, they became the Blood Elves and eventually joined the Horde.

And here comes the most important point in this discussion: the Blood Elves are NOT the High Elves. The tragedy they suffered led them to completely change who they were.

I have a question. Let's imagine that Blizzard decided to make the Blood Elves part of the Alliance....what would be the point? The Blood Elves had very little to offer them. The Alliance already had magical power, already had a place in the Eastern Kingdoms, already had paladins, and already had ELVES. And do you really think the Belfs in the Alliance would be allowed to siphon mana from other living beings? Or use a Naaruu to create paladins? Or be able to use feel magic to sustain their city? Of course not! They would have to abandon everything if they wanted the Alliance to help them. I think the only interesting thing would be a possible conflict of past grudges with the Night Elves, but in general, the Blood Elves would be treated the same as the High Elves. And if they are to be treated as High Elves, why be called Blood Elves?

But the Horde? The Blood Elves, despite their beautiful appearance, have a much more Horde vibe.

They are the perfect continuation of their story, a race that suffered great tragedies, becoming outcasts, labeled as monsters for desperately trying to survive. The Horde came and extended a hand to them. The most interesting thing is how the Forsaken, the former Lordaeron, currently led by the former Ranger General of Quel'Thalas, did this, The two groups that suffered most at the hands of Arthas were united by mutual tragedy and a desire for revenge.

The Horde gained a lot from the Blood Elves, gaining magical representatives, a new position in the eastern kingdoms, gaining paladins, and gaining a beautiful race for players. In return, the Blood Elves gained a new identity, proof that the fall of Quel'Thalas changed them forever. They are no longer High Elves, they are no longer members of the Alliance.

They are the last members of a fallen people, willing to do anything to survive. If their former companions don't agree with them, if they are now monsters, then Sindo'rei will join the other monsters they once fought, FOR THE HORDE!

That's why the inclusion of the Blood Elves makes perfect thematic sense to me; it simply feels creative and right.

Basically telling them "We're not helping the blood elves, we're farming aura"

Look, one, Murozond deserves better. He could very easily be a chaotic-neutral reality-warping chaos gremlin trickster character at the hands of the right writers. Think TNG's Q, Discord, Owl Houses' Collector.

Two, he could help fixing so much of the mess that the lore, canon, etc is right now. No matter your stance on the current lore and all, but it is an all over the place mess.

There are some wonderful ways to have him come back in out of left field that would absolutely be current canon compliant.

Please Blizzard, let him fix this. Make him the little chaos gremlin he deserves to be.

The premise of the post and question is pretty simple.

Is there a place for people that can go and enjoy discussion about the game and it's lore, theory crafting and the good bits of modern lore, as shaky as some of these are, alike r/LowSodiumBattlefield ?

The question stems from an observation of increasing and almost unfilterable amount of both, posts and comments, that go beyond just constructive criticism.

To put it bluntly, half the discourse about WoW lore is hardly a discourse about lore- But almost endless echo chamber of how bad the lore is.

That is not to say that constructive criticisms and stuff blizzard messes up should either be endorsed, ignored or accepted. None of that. Blizzard is, in fact, faulty of many pitfalls of modern writing, and many of such I have stronger or lesser opinions about. Red Dawn or the Arcantina Garrosh questlines being clear examples how a constructive criticism and strong pushback against blantantly awful story is important.

But there's a trend (And now with the end of expansion -> new expansion cycle where the hate historically has always been the worst towards WoW) where it's getting increasingly difficult to have a nuanced discussion about the lore, and more often than not falling into pitfalls of "WoW died when Vanilla/Cataclysm/Legion/Shadowlands/TWW released!" or "It's not like WC3 therefore it's bad".

As one of the other users mentioned, as much as blizzard is employing Rule of Cool in WoW, players are also ignoring completely actual effort and subtleness that is put into the writing, while complaining that it gives them bad vibes.

So the question is: Why is bad or mediocre writing from 20 or 30 years ago accepted or shrugged at, but bad and mediocre writing from today cannot be discussed or engaged with community?

Before such comments arise. If you ask me "Well, if you don't like it, just don't read it" is not an answer to this problem. It's a deep rooted issue with WoW community as a whole, and why just ignoring it is not a solution lies in that word: Community.

World of Warcraft is a massively multiplayer game, and discussing the lore, engaging with the world, and being a part of that discourse is major part of the allure. Just existing in a vaccuum solves nothing, if anything it creates further and further negative feedback loop that sends clear message to the developers who cannot get any constructive criticism, and alienates newcommers from ever engaging with the lore. Afterall, why would anyone bother with world of warcraft if it "hasn't been good since Wrath of the Lich King"?

Part of the excitement, part of the hype for an up and comming expansion or a game or even a cinematic is sharing that excitement and theory crafting with others. But it seems before the expansion even releases, people already have assumed from vague screens or leaks what the game is going to be, looked over quests from the Beta that aren't fully implemented, or simply do not accept that the game's world did not exist in a stasis for 20 years.

So I come back to my original question: For all it's pitfalls, there is still plenty to look forward to in the future. There's still much to be excited about, to theory craft, and to see how this almost living and breathing world has evolved over 20 years, in various of people's interpretations or renditions of it.

So, if you were to say something positive about the game, about it's future, about what you like about the recent lore, or what you are the most excited about, or crazy theory that you can't wait to tell someone- what would it be?

Big microsoft calls and says "the investors say nobody is going to latch on to wow we need to do a reboot/reset/" Or Blizzard themselves now barely having any of the old team left want to make their marks known on wow and do something that's never been done before and press the reset button on wow. REALISTICALLY taking into consideration the current factors at blizzard including what aspects of wow's story blizzard currently likes to write about. And how they write it what does that look like?

I was going to type out my idea for what that would look like but every one I have is admittedly in extreme bad faith towards blizzards writing capability.

I have been a long time member of this sub. i came here to discuss the lore of Warcraft. Speculate, discuss head cannons, discuss RP backstories or answer questions. but recently I see a trend among most posts and comments here that i need to address.

The "Who/what is stronger" or "who would win" posts.
these are posted daily. These are threads so ripe with Subjective biases, that there cannot be any respectable conversation. All they do is promote Tribalism with in the lore community. I think these posts should be listed under the fith rule of this sub, as low effort.

The "I haven't played the beta yet, but would/should X character be in the Shadowlands?" posts
First of, nearly everyone here has not played the Beta.
Second of, All the information people share on threads with the spoiler flair, is sourced from widely available sources like MMO-champion and Wowhead. We know as much as those sources do. The Answer to all of these threads boils down to: "We don't know, but they might, or might not"
These threads are subject to speculation. which is perfectly fine but they should be flaired as Discussion, not question.

Then we have the daily complaining. I personally have little to complain about the current state of the Lore. but i know i am not in the majority with that view. (or at least this Sub makes me feel, as if that is the case)

While i can understand the need to vent frustrations. please keep it fair. The phrase "lazy writing" and "the devs don't care" get thrown around so much. it is often a Answer to a honest question in discussion threads. That stance on the lore, in my Honest opinion, should not have any place on a Lore subreddit. If that is the only answer you can and want to give just don't answer at all.

I must be honest. this post was inspired by a recent thread by someone that embodied the "devs don't care" stance to a point where they went so far and said "stop caring about the lore, its just a game" while they tried to be nice about it. they clearly missed the entire point of this sub reddit.

Now he made 1 solid point. Warcraft lore cannot be compared to an Epic like A song of ice and fire. or The lord of the rings. but it can be compared to Comic books.

Anyone who has ever followed a Comic book series knows that characters can be written very differently, depending who is the Writer of the series.

Why are the Avengers not helping Iron man fight this powerful cyber terrorist? well its not relevant to that arch. This is basically how Expansion stories are written. but just like with Long running comics like Captain america and Batman. there is Established lore that serves as the foundation of the world these characters live in.

The Writers do look back on old established lore and see that it might clash with new archs they wish to write. so they either Retroactively recontextualize that lore to have it make sense with the relevant lore. or they add onto the old lore, so they can build new stories of off that.

having said all this, i want to return to the topic of "lazy writing" and "devs don't care"

I find this insulting to the people who day in and day out brainstorm and write drafts and write hundreds of pages of quest texts to make the world feel alive and interesting and epic. to just hand wave it as "lazy writing" if it doesn't fit your own narrative.

I have seen so many people make baseless assumptions, being outraged over seemingly nothing. just because A: they don't know the full story, or B: don't want to know the full story.

Http://www.Wowpedia.com/ exists. I would recommend everyone, that feels like something doesn't make sense to them. to fist Look up the topic on the Site. and if it still doesn't make sense, which can often be the case, make a heated discussion thread about it. as lately most of these Angry threads can just be explained by glancing at the relevant topics on Wowpedia.

Now, i get that this topic is itself based on my own views. though i did try to keep it as neutral as possible. If you agree or disagree with my stance on this sub reddit. This is a place you own stances on it. I am open for Healthy civil debate, if you disagree with me.

Yes yes, I get it: "hurr durr demon hunters are fight fire with fire".

But I can't just help but think that Devourer Demon Hunters are just a cheap writing gimmick to fill the third missing spec and fit it with the Void theme.

Sure I definitely can see the connection between Void Elves and Demon Hunters: both using dangerous dark powers for the greater good, both shunned by their own kin.

And yet I just cannot see why a Void Elf would undergo a ritual to become a Demon Hunter: eat a demon's heart, carve out their own eyes and infuse themselves with Fel to the point where they risk their body to blow up... and then switch into Void like nothing because "ah right, we are fighting Void now"?

I just can't see it through.

And mind you I DEEPLY LOVE both Demon Hunters and Void Elves.

But I just cannot see them working as one.

And Devourer is just yuck.

To fight the void they should have designed a brand new 100% Void hero class spec IMO, not a third filler spec for an already existing class with a whole different theme.

It just feels so wrong, especially when I look at the recycled Havoc metamorphosis painted blue.

So, so bad.

Before diving into this, keep in mind that any piece of media you see takes at least a year, usually a year and a half to three years, from the writing stage to the release.

Afrasiabi became Creative Director in 2016 around Legion.

In 2018, in a Eurogamer interview, Afrasiabi claims he has been writing Sylvanas "personally" since 2006.

Before the Storm, released the same year as that interview, has a Sylvanas inner monologue about conquering Stormwind and converting them to the undead. 2018 was also the year Warbringers: Syvlanas came out and made some weird attempts at kinda-sorta justifying the Burning of Teldrassil. Much confusion ensued about how Sylvanas could be at all sympathetic at this point.

In the Three Sisters comic, also released in 2018, Sylvanas expresses wanting to convert her sisters into undeath for their own benefit. I believe she also held this wish back in the WoD lead-up novel as well. Unsettling but consistent so far.

In September 2019, we get the end of the war campaign. This comes with an extremely vague cinematic in which Sylvanas demonstrates her new Shadowlands power and blows up Saurfang then nopes out. Also in September, a simple in-game scene for Banshee Loyalists reveals for the very first time that Sylvanas was feeding souls to the Maw. A couple months later at BlizzCon 2019, the Shadowlands cinematic is released. Sylvanas demonstrates new domination powers and breaks the Helm of Domination, opening the way to the afterlife. This is probably one of the last things Afrasiabi worked on given the timeline.

In June 2020, Afrasiabi is fired for sexual misconduct. This almost certainly did not happen suddenly and there was a time before this that he was seen less often. In fact, Afrasiabi seems to have been conspicuously absent for BlizzCon 2019. This is important.

In August 2020, the Uther Afterlives video is released. This is the first time we learn that Mourneblades can split a soul. It could go either way, but it's possible Afrasiabi is not involved with this.

Remember how at the top I said any piece of media you see in WoW takes at least a year to create? BlizzCon 2019 was the earliest date I can find in which Afrasiabi is just gone. And, a year later, Shadowlands releases. With this release comes the first time Sylvanas is shown not seeming to give a good gosh darn about the undead or converting anyone and instead talks (vaguely) about breaking the unfair system of the afterlife and remaking it. This is also the time she first expresses doubt about her path while talking to Anduin. Doubt she did not feel in the cinematic Afrasiabi was involved in despite it being a more monstrous act that also mirrored her fall at Arthas' hands. This, in all likelihood, is one of the first cinematics created while Afrasiabi was being pushed out and Danuser was taking over his role.

What this suggests to me is the following:

• Afrasiabi probably had a different plan for Sylvanas. Given that he probably didn't have as much of a role in Afterlives: Uther, it is entirely possible he did not intend for Sylvanas' soul to be split. While he probably was involved in the Saurfang death cinematic and the Shadowlands cinematic, and thus the early writing of the Shadowlands story, the Jailer and Sylvanas' relationship with him are notably absent. Both cinematics would have been written in 2018 or early 2019 at the latest. He was still giving interviews in 2018. While there was a gameplay trailer for Shadowlands released in 2019 that showed the Jailer's silhouette, this could have been written much later as it was simpler and in-engine.

• Afrasiabi may have thought burning Teldrassil was more morally grey than it actually was. While it's possible Sylvanas just lied a whole bunch, it's documented that her motivational turn from converting everyone into the undead to reforming the afterlife happened almost exactly as Afrasiabi was on the way out. Her position on azerite and the threat the Alliance posed was also contradicted. While the Maw was canon since the Edge of Night, we learned nothing more about it until late 2019. Keeping all of this in mind, there was an odd amount of justifying why the genocide of the night elves was Maybe Good, Actually, and Maybe Sylvanas Had A Point About It.

• The reveal that Teldrassil was just a method of feeding the Maw happened after Afrasiabi left. It also makes this act more unambiguously evil and thus removes the weird "maybe genocide is good sometimes" messaging that Afrasiabi may have been going for at first.

• Much, much later, we get the Sanctum of Domination cinematic. In 9.1, Sylvanas' soul being split is fully confirmed long after Afrasiabi departed. The lost piece of her soul is reunited with her and the heavy implication is that the Sylvanas that Afrasiabi "personally" wrote since 2006 was an incomplete, broken soul that could be fixed.

So this tells me that the split-soul Sylvanas was maybe not the plan until very recently. Sylvanas' motivation for reforming the afterlife may also be very recent and that may be why it's so underdeveloped, even by Blizzard standards. This may also explain why Sylvanas' motivations took such a sharp left turn beginning with a scene in 8.2.5 that would definitely not have taken an entire year to create.

And on top of that, Danuser and the writing team were handed the character of Sylvanas from Afrasiabi. A character people felt a connection to and were disappointed to see villain batted so brutally. Maybe Afrasiabi intended to redeem her, I don't know, but the writing team that inherited her maybe realized that the only options they had with the character were to kill her off or awkwardly absolve her of her sins by showing that she was not in control at the time. Maybe she'll still die? I don't know.

So, in the end, my theory is that we got a sudden left turn away from what Afrasiabi may have been envisioning because its implications were deeply messed up. The work was not done to connect Afrasiabi's vision to the new vision which lead to inconsistencies and blatant retcons that all happened in the same 12 month period. And pretty much no one is happy with it.

Grain of salt, this is just speculation, etc. But I've been very interested in how this story went so wrong so fast.

This is in response to folks on here and other WoW subs talking about how it's world of friendscraft now, and advocating for faction war.

It doesn't make sense. The world has been in conflict for decades. Populations reduced to single digit percentages. The draenei are refugees who then got genocided again, then crash landed. The blood elves, night elves(less so), and tauren are also survivors of near genocidal conditions. Gnomes exist in a tiny pocket, and erradicated themselves, all the human kingdoms except stormwind and Kul Tiras have been destroyed. The orcs mostly come from concentration camps(I would love some info that makes orc populations make any sense). The dark spear trolls come from a tiny island that they got forced from. Stormwind destroyed and rebuilt.

The only races I can think of who may be on okayish footing are humans, dwarves, forsaken(only because we don't know how many there were who initially broke free, and how many have been valkyr rezzed, but they're distined for extinction), and goblins(even with Kezan exploding). Maybe Gilneas?

Then we have wars 1-4, the scourge going haywire twice(Wrath and SL), the invasion of Northrend, the cataclysm, the legion invasion, Garrosh, and heaps of adventurers being fed to threats in Draenor, dragonflight, classic, and BC.

The characters of WoW are rational, pragmatic beings with minds not unlike ours. Wars between humans typically last 4-5 years before being unsustainable. So the last thing a leader would want is more conflict.

WoW plays fast and loose with numbers, but that only holds up as a reason for so long in the face of back to back apocalypses and wars.

Do all the wow races reach combat maturity at age 5?

Instead of just unsubbing without comment, I wanted to mention what I realized here in case anyone else shares simple tastes like me: My enjoyment of WoW has significantly dropped since joining WoW-related subreddits. I think it's because most discussions surrounding WoW highlight and amplify flaws more than I would have noticed otherwise.

I like playing WoW in the evenings with my partner, and as we go, we've been enjoying the pulpy outrageous stories piece by piece. But it took me a while to figure out why every day I've started to feel increasingly miserable, until I saw my Reddit feed - and just now I'm realizing that this community is consistently and heavily skewed towards the negative, saturated with an air of hopelessness and grief.

I acknowledge I probably have simple taste in writing, and also I believe it's good to critique the things you (enjoy?) so I'm not really saying "let's be more positive" or anything - I hate forcing positivity onto others or trying to tell people to stop being upset.

But for my own Reddit daily use-case, it's healthier to leave and accept being a little less enlightened about good vs bad writing. Just wanted to make this post instead of quietly leaving, in case there is anyone else who might benefit from a reminder that there's no obligation to take part in an aspect of a hobby if it doesn't enrich it for you.

Edit: I'm in favor of critiquing media, and I don't disagree with anyone saying lore is/isn't great. Saying if anyone finds themselves having a worse time than otherwise due to being surrounded by gloom, we can just yoop away.

Seriously, there seem to be actual Alliance supremacists, Horde revisionists, night elf revanchists, Doomhammer apologists, etc in the lore community, and it doesn't seem to be all in good fun. [faction/race] apologists, people who believe in [faction/race] exceptionalism who, when the lore shits on their favorite Warcraft faction or race (which happens quite often thanks to Blizzard writing being Blizzard writing), take it as a personal offense from the side of the writers, and even the people who like the opposite or simply a different faction or race.

These people try to explain why [faction/race] weren't as evil as others believe, even when the lore directly or indirectly portrays them exactly in the opposite way, or why the different [faction/race] aren't as impressive or noteworthy (sometimes even not as advanced) as [faction/race]. Almost every defeat or failing is either a secretly genius move or a conspiracy from the players and developers to sabotage the reputation of the glorious [faction/race], and rarely are the narrative implications and weight of said failings examined in the story at large.

Notably this doesn't happen with the less prominent races like gnomes, for understandable reasons, and the chances of people who like them having a more balanced take on understanding their faction or race's problems are higher.(Blizzard not caring about their story or fixing it)

I do think people being passionate about aspects of media they enjoy is good, but in WoW's case this often seems to devolve into tribalism. It's funny and fascinating how it often mirrors real life tribalism and arguments, and I've been wondering how it even got to the point, as I've personally never been able to really attach myself due to how messy the factions are written.

https://blizzardwatch.com/2020/04/14/dark-skinned-blood-elves-dont-violate-lore/

*Edit - Before I log off for the night, I found a Wayback Machine of the wiki from November 2006. Could be an interesting starting off point.

I don't know a ton about how to do this, but is it possible to download the site so it's not being read off the Wayback Machine's servers?

I'll look more into it later

My thought process here is, there is a ton of new information that we've gleaned since January 2007 when TBC came out. Some retcons (that might still exist), tons of huge information, and most importantly a story that's moved forward.

I was going back to find some info, and realized that because of compounding information, what we know today is vastly different than what we knew in Vanilla - we didn't even know what an Old God really was, there was no payoff for Fandral Staghelm, Blood Elves were off in their forests and Outland rebuilding, Draenei were what we refer to as Lost Ones. No further books to reference after Rise of the Horde (2006).

Would it at all be possible to find a source like the old WoWWiki, that only has information that was available to us from 1995-2006? Further, then using that to "build" a WoWpediaForever style site that would be incorrect for a WoW player in 2026, but not for a WoW player in 2006?

Essentially, purposefully outdated to match our new time period.

Does this make sense? Any thoughts? I'm happy to reword what I mean, I'm kind of coming up with this idea as I'm typing, I feel it can be a bit tough to wrap your head around knowing what you know and not knowing what you don't know.

So for those who didn’t see, Steve Danuser came out with the statement that homophobia is not the norm in Warcraft. Acceptance is. That may not be a big deal to many people but to me I think it was an awesome thing he did. I honestly have had issues with a lot of what he did in BfA narratively but respect where respect is due. I know it can be intimidating taking a hard stance publicly like that, and I respect the hell out of the guy for doing it.

there’s people who sometimes say, “Well, Warcraft is this medieval fantasy game and those kinds of things weren’t talked about in medieval times, so they shouldn’t be in Azeroth,” but I disagree with that. I think that Azeroth is a world of magic and a world of possibilities, and one of the things that’s really important to know is that, in Azeroth, you can love who you want, you can identify yourself the way that you want

A lot of people I know on my server deal with hate and prejudice in real life and the game is a form of escape. Establishing Azeroth canonically as a place free of that type of ugliness is a massive comfort to those people. It’s really nice to see so many people I care about react to this interview. Thank you, Steve Danuser.

Basically the title. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing, but whenever a question about a part of the lore is brought up, at least half the answers that are given are purely Doylist in their assessment, and personally my first instinct is also explaining it by 'the writers didn't think this through' or something of that nature, thinking about the lore more than the writers is kinda the unofficial motto of this community.

'Because Blizzard' or the more humorous one, 'because it's better not to think of [insert shitty expansion here]'. Well, obviously so. Everything, the shitty and the not so shitty, is 'because Blizzard'. And when we decide to ignore certain parts of the lore because they're shitty, what are we even left with? What is lore at that point? What are we supposedly discussing here?

Obviously looking at the broader picture is good for a reasonable understanding of the subject and for having reasonable expectations, but at the same an overwhelming amount of purely Doylist assessment kind of feels like giving up on the subject. And I totally understand that, it often feels really pointless to try to think the lore through when you realize things are the way they are because of [Blizzard factor]. I may have not been paying too much attention, but it feels like this is becoming more and more common, and if I had to find a reason it would be the trust in the fictional setting and the suspension of disbelief totally disintegrating because of bad writing. What are your thoughts on this?

Hello once again gamers, even to the haters and losers. It would normally be a pleasure to be here to discuss lore with all of you, but this time I come here with a heavy heart and an OFFICIAL apology. You may know me from my hit posts on the r/warcraftlore subreddit such as "Genn Greymane Is Responsible for Saving the Warcraft Universe" and my more recent "The Very Obvious, Not at All Mysterious Mystery of Who Was In the New Cinematic".

I come in response to the recent news that a Blizzard employee apparently confirmed who was in the new cinematic. Even though the confirmed group looks nothing like how they have been depicted in the past, have seemingly paid to have their race changed off of Lightforged, and are a much less interesting option than the one that seemed obvious to me, it appears I was wrong.

I apologize for leading you all astray. Below is a link to my apology form to the community so that I may be forgiven.

https://imgflip.com/i/a3rh59

Signed-

gaygringo69

Sick of people complaining about people answering questions with "cause lore bad" or something along those lines. This is a lore reddit, not a fan fiction reddit, don't be mad at these people cause they won't sink more time than blizzard into thinking about the incomprehensible lore blizzard keeps presenting us with. They don't have to nor should they need to try to make sense of the ENTIRE plot of the lore by using head canon or speculation. It's not thier fault blizzard has decided anything prelegion is basically null and void lore that they have no care to revisit other than to nostalgia bait or to recontextualize as a weak pillar for thier garbage story to stand on. Blizzard has chose telling what ever dumb ass space quest story with ham fisted mystery boxes and twists they have written down on post it notes around the office over writing a good compelling story that feels like warcraft.

While I haven't done the Forsaken Heritage storyline, i've heard roughly the same thing. The story really makes no exploration of the racial identity or heritage of the groups. Regarding the NE one, as the one i've actually done, the closest thing we get is acknowledging that facial marking ceremonies exist... which is not new, and has been a thing for years. I mean, I guess at least 1 quest acknowledged that "The Wardens" arent an organization and are just a rank within another organization called the Watchers, but then they seem to walk that back later anyways by omission...

There are a few minor issues. This framing of the Satyr curse doesn't really make sense with what we've been shown, as it is something Elune is capable of curing when she wants, as well as the majority of Satyr in history being presented as groups who either aren't aligned with the Kaldorei anymore, or are individuals who EXPLICITLY willingly took the curse for power. It doesn't address the tonal shift innate to this change. It just wants you to take it at face value. These aren't necessarily 'big' issues though by any means, because the questline itself is so devoid of anything really happening.

In .5, the Orcish storyline focused on cultural restoration and exploring their clans or acknowledging even obscure characters, developing them in relation to other characters into new positions to show the world has changed. Nothing like that happened here. We focus on a never before seen Warden, and her brother who plays into the typical 'timid guy proves his worth' story we've already seen multiple times in DF. Maeiv apologizes for being mean about mages... that's pretty much it. Oh sure, the guy TALKS about the defilement of their history and culture. But NOTHING in the questline explores any of their history beyond the events of WoW and some of the corruption from wc3.

Lor’themar: He takes a propranolol before each appointment. He has a bad history with sharp objects near his face

Thalyssra: When the Nightwell was in full swing a fun side effect was that it kept everyone’s teeth perfect. She’s not mad that she has to go to the dentist now but wishes she didn’t have to

Thrall: LOVES that he can go to the dentist. Growing up in the internment camps he didn’t have access to anything like vaccines or annual checkups or dentist visits

Rokhan: Since trolls have tusks the semiannual dental cleaning takes three times as long so often times he just uses the time to get a nap in

Gazlowe: “Goblin dentist” is usually a phrase which sends shivers down one’s spine, but he's got a guy in Ratchet that he likes. He was very insistent that all employees in Bilgewater Cartel have a solid dental plan and has been encouraging the other cartel heads to offer the same

Anduin: When he was young he was shown “The Big Book of Gilnean Smiles” and it traumatized him

Umbric: One time he thought it would be funny to prank the dentist by having Void tentacles come out of his mouth and now only the Stormwind dental school students will see him

Shandris: As a priestess of Elune she has been able to use her powers to make sure her pearly whites stay perfect and her fangs are always nice and sharp

Yes, Blizzard is being a giant screw up right now, but guess what? Doesn't have anything to do with the story of WoW. I have made this stance clear before and it is not changing.

I promise you I'm not shilling for Bliz or deflecting, I did my own small part, but it's seriously not allowed on here. I've had to remove a couple posts and just nuked a couple comment threads. Take it easy y'all.

/r/WoW, /r/Blizzard, /r/Hearthstone, and even major default subs are all discussing these on-goings. Go talk about the meta drama over there. Keep this sub clean. If you really want to talk about it with other sub members for some Forsaken reason keep it to this thread. I'll allow comments in here for the time being unless it goes totally off the rails.

Speaking lore wise here. Does Chris being back in board give you any hope for the story? Obviously so much of it has been damaged, but do you think it will become better? Do you think it'll go back to being how it was when you liked the lore? Why, or why not?

When people are inviting discussion or asking questions, it really isn't interesting, helpful or entertaining to reply with "because blizz writers are bad, that is the reason". These comments are everywhere and are normally highly upvoted.

I know there are frustrations with the story right now and blizzard as a whole, but all you're doing is making the original poster feel silly for having an interest and curiosity in the lore. Sure, sometimes there are retcons or truly baffling decisions that we can't understand, but I think it's better for everyone if we all can encourage positive discussions.

If you find yourself writing a 'blizz writing bad' comment, ask yourself, what are you really adding to the conversation?

Edit: I have to say, I knew this would be controversial, but the rampant downvoting in the comments, even for those that disagree with me, is another issue with this sub. Disagreements are welcome and downvoting blindly because you don't like something does nothing but stifle discussion and silence comments.

In The Rulers of Zul'Aman-tablet it says:

The names of MANZAJIN'S descendants have been lost, but what we do know is this: they pledged to rid the northeast of Kith'ix and the aqir and our bonds to the Zandalari.

As they traveled, they found their ability to call upon the loa weakened by the distance from their lands and the meddling of Kith'ix. The Amani cleansed the aqir from the land and created the vast Atal'Utek as a monument to their great battle but forbade entrance to its temple.

With this great victory began the AMANI EMPIRE OF ZUL'AMAN!

I think that Manzajin's descendants were Strongblood Jak'mo(which later would became the guardian of the key/dagger to open the Vaults of Atal'Utek) and his sister Nek'zali the Soulcoiler that would summon Ula'tek to defeat Kith'ix but also ravage the Amani and their land that used to be mainly on the Coiled Isles(since they wanted to distance themselves from the Zandalari and make an empire of their own).

Jak'mo would punish his sister for summoning Ula'tek and entomb her and her cult followers the Soulcoilers within the Crypt of the Denied, and then assign Yan'ti the Bold to guard the crypt. Nek'zali would eventually die in the crypt, clawing at the walls.
Jak'mo then assigned masons to build a massive temple to bury Ula'tek(it isn't specified how they subdued her to build this on top and around her though). That temple is the Vaults of Atal'Utek, and the masons had horrible working conditions and outright being sacrificed and abandoned to make it work.

Jak'mo would later lead his people west, into Zul'Aman and resettle what was left of the Amani. He would erase all records of the events and Ula'tek that happened on the Coiled Isles from Amani history.

Later in history Kindo'jan(who would become the first Hash'ey) would lead the Amani and comission to build their capital temple city of Atal'Aman in Zul'Aman.

It is not known if he knew but the key to open the vaults of Atal'Utek was Nek'zali's dagger that was burried in the city and Jak'mo would become it's guardian.

From there on the Amani forgot all about the cursed islands to the east and started the Amani Empire and had connections with the Loa of the land and eventually the Amani would splinter into different tribes(Amani, Shadowpine, Witherbark, Revantusk and Vilebranch) and the recorded history as we know it would go on.

The late settelement, temple and Ula'tek on the Coiled Isles would remain in a cursed mist until Hex Lord Malacrass would research about it(got killed and sealed his soul into a Hex Mask) and got powered as the Hex Mask by Zul'jan, to retrieve the key/dagger to the Vaults.