r/etymology • • 19h ago

Discussion The name Wales and Welsh shouldn’t simply be said to mean “foreigner”. And other related names like Walachia, Wallonia

121 Upvotes

Saying Welsh meant foreigner to Anglo-Saxons is an oversimplification. The term Welsh derived from West-Germanic “walhaz” which comes from the Volcae, who were a “Celtic” (Celtic isn’t as comparable to Germanic as 1 linguistic group but I digress) tribe in many regions, including near Germanic people. This term was then later applied to groups of people who were Celtic or Romanised particularly, the Celts who they encountered would have been under Roman rule for centuries (apart from the Irish) so the Celts and Romance speakers were lumped together. So term “walhaz” is more specifically a Roman adjacent people. The Slavs would have been foreign to Germanic people too yet they didn’t get this term, which highlights that it didn’t only mean foreigner. The Slavs themselves borrowed the term to mean Romanised people too. Vlach for example derives from this root to refer to
Romance speakers in Eastern Europe.
Włochy is the Polish word for Italy derived from the same source. Olaszország in Hungarian also shares this root (Olasz).

The word Welsch in High German referred to Romance speakers, generally French or Italians speakers and also Romance speakers in Switzerland which is still used. Alsatians historically used the term to refer to other French people

The word Gaul is actually from this root from the Franks, and not Gallia (a common sound change in certain Romance dialects/languages was w > g and doublets can be seen like William - Guillaume/Guilhermo and doublets in English like reward and regard from different French dialects. In some Old French dialects the word was “Waule”. Gallia would have become Jaille in French, and survives in some toponyms like “La Jaille-Yvon”

Walnuts have same etymology, as walnuts arrived from Roman Empire

There are some contexts in which its used to mean foreigner in descended terms, but it shouldn’t be interpreted as its literal meaning in proto-Germanic


r/etymology • • 1d ago

Question Is it possible that "Hebrew" and "Arab" were the same word?

200 Upvotes

I'm arab and growing up as a child whenever i read the word "Hebrew(Abri)" i always assumed that it was closely related to Arabic(Arbi) not because i was aware of anything, but because of how similar the names are. I just realized that this similarity is still the same in Hebrew as Arabic was called "arbit" and Hebrew was called "ibrit" before hebrews switched their Bs to Vs.

I did a little research and it turns out that the first recorded mention of the word "Arab" came from Mesopotamia. Similarly, the word Hebrew means "crossed" referring to crossing the euphrates which is again, Mesopotamia. Interestingly, "Arab" is also believed to refer to the nomadic lifestyle which is relevant to the concept of "crossing." So is it possible that Arab and Hebrew were actually the same word?


r/etymology • • 6h ago

Cool etymology Word of the Day: Supplicate

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3 Upvotes

Meaning: To ask or beg for something earnestly and humbly, often with a sense of desperation or deep respect.

The word traces back to the Latin supplicāre, meaning “to kneel down” or “to plead humbly.”


r/etymology • • 1d ago

Cool etymology Manglish words like 'jom'

31 Upvotes

As a Malaysian, i realised my some English words i used are not actually 'proper English'. For example, we use the word 'jom' instead of 'lets go', which might sound like a completely different language for other English native speakers.

There are more examples like 'Atas' 'Langzai' 'amoi'. Those words originated from the local languages such as Malay and Chinese. HOWEVER, English native speakers in Malaysia like me use those words naturally without even being aware that those are possibly Malay or Chinese words.

I know the same thing happens to non-native speakers as they often mix their home language with English. But Malaysians are the only example i can think of who creates new words from other languages and use it in daily English conversation while speaking English as our first language.

i also created a Mnagluhs dictionary. Can any linguist explain how Manglish was formed and if there are any other examples like Manglish existing in the world?


r/etymology • • 17h ago

Cool etymology Seeking linguists to help verify uncertain cases in a hand-curated Arabic-origin word dataset (for a computational etymology model) — credit in thesis

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0 Upvotes

r/etymology • • 16h ago

Question Etymology of 'token' as used in AI

0 Upvotes

I'm trying to figure out in which sense the word 'token' is being used in topics like parsing and natural language processing / AI. For a text to be processed by a computer, it first needs to be broken down into smaller parts called tokens, which could be things like words, punctuation, numbers, etc.

Although 'token' means 'symbol' in general, in English it has many different more concrete senses and it's not clear in which sense it was meant when it was used in this context. Knowing what that specific sense is would allow for better translations of the word as other languages would use different words for different senses of token. I don't think the word should be translated into the nebulous 'symbol' equivalent.


r/etymology • • 1d ago

Question "-grino" meaning? Origins in Aymara

3 Upvotes

Hello! I am a conservationist doing some work about Tilcayo, the "recently" discovered small cat species in Bolivia.

We learned that the name the locals gave the cat was a bit of slang that originated from the word "T'ili kayu" which means "small foot."

The specific cat found was named "Tilgrino." I'm struggling to find any real translation of "-grino." All of my searches are being flooded with AI correcting it to "gringo."

I found a few articles but they credit AI models as well.

So far I have two possible meanings, (latin) traveller and (germanic) fierce.

For context, the cat was found as a baby at the foot of a mountain and taken in by a local who thought it was a domestic kitten. I can see both meanings fitting with this background.

From your own viewpoint, which one do you think is the most accurate. My boss is telling me it doesn't really matter, but I'd like to be as close as possible to the truth.

Edit: Thanks everyone! Turns out it was an error in our papers T_T


r/etymology • • 2d ago

Cool etymology Persians put the word for "soul" after your name. It shares an old root for breathing with Latin anima.

183 Upvotes

جان. Written, it's jān. Said in Tehran, it's joon, and it goes on the end of a name: Maryam-joon, māmān-joon. There it means dear. The noun itself means soul, life. Someone calls your name and you answer joonam?, "my soul?", which is a warm way of saying "yes?"

Middle Persian had gyān, soul (no relation to Hindi gyān, knowledge). The same gy- to j- change turned gyāg, place, into jā. The standard etymology splits gyān into a prefix plus a reconstructed Iranian root meaning to breathe. Sanskrit put the same two pieces together in vyāna, the name of one of the body's vital breaths. Behind both is the Indo-European root that also gave Greek anemos, wind, and Latin anima, breath, soul.

To be careful: jān doesn't mean breath, and as far as I can find it never did. The breathing is in the root. It also wasn't always the accepted story. Nineteenth-century etymologists proposed other origins.

Interestingly, Middle Persian made a word for animal out of gyān, and Persian still says jānvar, roughly "soul-haver." Latin made animal out of anima. Two languages making the same move with the same old root, and no borrowing either way.

If you know jaan from Urdu and Hindi, that one is a loan from Persian.

I grew up understanding Persian and answering in English. I only went digging after stumbling upon this rabbit hole while learning more about the language so i could build Farsi-Jan.


r/etymology • • 2d ago

Question Looking for a specific type of food dictionary

10 Upvotes

Hope this is an okay thing to ask about here.

Something I've been interested in for a while is a dictionary that defines and provides origins for different types of "styles" of food - So like Oysters "Rockefeller", Lobster "Newburg", Chicken "Florentine". That kind of thing.

Also, is there a term for that kind of thing - the X in "Food a la X"?

Edit - I realize a lot of these are going to be covered in lists of eponyms, but I'm interested in something that would also include food toponyms.


r/etymology • • 2d ago

Question Historical Pronunciation of 'Knight' - source?

34 Upvotes

Hey! Y'know how the word knight (and other kn- English words) have a silent K because it used to be pronounced but eventually the [k] got dropped but the letter stayed in our spelling? Does anyone know of a scholarly source that states this? Of course the OED and other etymology resources have the old spellings but I can't find anything specifically on the pronunciation that is reliable enough to be cited. Thanks for your help!


r/etymology • • 1d ago

Cool etymology Origin of word "Vitthala"

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r/etymology • • 3d ago

Cool etymology Duffel, Belgium -> Duffel cloth

80 Upvotes

This Sunday afternoon I was in the small city of Duffel, close to Antwerp(en), Belgium.

What a coincidence: Duffel cloth ... Duffel bag ... Duffel coat.

Oh ... not a coincidence at all ... from Wikipedia:

The town gives its name to a type of heavy woolen cloth generally used to make blankets and overcoats, especially for the armed forces, and a type of luggage. In the Middle Ages, an important part of the region's industry was the manufacturing of Flemish laken (a broadcloth), while the cloth produced in Duffel was a thicker variation. The manufacturing process was brought to England by Flemish emigrants in the 1500s. The name for the cloth was so well-known, a type of overcoat made from the cloth and manufactured in England received the name Duffel coat.


r/etymology • • 3d ago

Question who coined “Rome wasn’t built in a day”?

46 Upvotes

r/etymology • • 2d ago

Question What's the etymology of the surname "Рutіn"? (Grammar/Suffix question)

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0 Upvotes

I always wondered about that. From my surface-level knowledge, it also doesn't make sense, since the Russian word 'Путь' is masculine, so wouldn't it make more sense as Putov (Путов) or Putev (Путев)? (I dunno, sry).

∘ ∘ ∘ (。· ヮ ·。) ?


r/etymology • • 2d ago

Funny Aipinion

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r/etymology • • 3d ago

Discussion when did “light” become “lite”

32 Upvotes

What’s the story of companies in particular, labelling their products “lite” instead of “light”? Thinking Nintendo DS Lite, Lite phones, Lite drinks and foods, and others.


r/etymology • • 3d ago

Question The word "fool" and its relation to disability?

9 Upvotes

I was researching the history of fools and on the 1828 websters dictionary it seems to connect fools to idiots or idiotic behavior (i.e. the term for the mentally disabled at the time). There were a couple articles from britanica and wikipedia that talked about natrual fools/fool born, people who had intellectual disabilities (or in UK terms a learning disability) and their use as entertainers in Europe since at least the Tudor era. The connection also seems to extend to the bible with the "holy fool", which I'm giving conflicting results as to whether it means those with/who feigned mental disability and/or mental illness or just mental disability for the lord.

How connected was the idea of foolishness to mentally disability?

Was it a medical term first (a la the word idiot)?

Was it connected to other mental illnesses like schizophrenia, ocd, or other forms of insanity?

When most people used the term fool, were they implying a resemblance to a mentally disabled person? When did this connection end?


r/etymology • • 2d ago

Cool etymology As raízes grecorromanas de nossas palavras que explicam sua origem

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0 Upvotes

r/etymology • • 4d ago

Discussion Stumped by the word “fagot” in “Les Miserables”

79 Upvotes

I am reading Les Mis, the original translation by Charles Wilbour. One of the sentences is “I know that man. He is a fagot.” The word is in italics and at the bottom of the page it states the word means “former convict.” I can’t find any evidence to support this claim. everything I am finding online points to the etymology of the word being ”a bundle of twigs used as kindling for a fire.” I am curious if you experts can help me out! thanks


r/etymology • • 4d ago

Question What languages other than English went through a great vowel shift?

51 Upvotes

This is pretty self explanatory, what languages besides English went through a change in their vowels and what words and sounds did that vowel shift affect?


r/etymology • • 2d ago

Question What does "er" and "sinister" mean.

0 Upvotes

I keep seeing it on Tiktok and I'm wondering what it means.


r/etymology • • 3d ago

Cool etymology The Green bag and debts

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r/etymology • • 3d ago

Discussion I coined a word called "Elarune" published on Urban Dictionary - now I will watch it evolve

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r/etymology • • 4d ago

Cool etymology Nahuatl etymologies - ask me

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1 Upvotes

For example - no, avocado does not mean "testicle" in Nahuatl. At least not anymore than nut, means testicle in English.

Indeed it can be reconstructed to proto-Nahuatl as *yewaka in the meaning "avocado".


r/etymology • • 4d ago

Cool etymology How the word for woman in Serbian ( žena) is a cognate to Hindi/Urdu (zanana)

30 Upvotes

Both cognates inherited the word through reconstructed Proto-Indo European: gʷḗn-, meaning "woman".

Serbian and many other Slavic languages like Polish ( żona ) inherited it through Proto-Slavic : žena (woman).

During the Mughal Period as the Persian language influenced the Indian sub-continent Urdu and Hindi had adopted the word "zanana" through classical Persian  زنانه (zanāna) which is composed of zan ( زن ) meaning woman and -âne (ـانه) a suffix that functions much the same as -ly does in English forming adjectives describing actions, concept or human beings.

So quite literally it means womanly or feminine. But the word zanana in this specific context went through nominalization and was originally a much longer form Sarāy-e zanāna (the house pertaining to women/women quarters) and began to shorten over time to just zanāna.

Lastly, both these words are cognates through PIE to English "queen".